In this episode of Hello, Chaos, hosts Jeno (Jennifer Oladipo) and JJ (Jennifer Sutton) welcome Doug Lineberry from Burr & Foreman back to discuss IP protection and trademark enforcement. They delve into the importance of understanding intellectual property, the difference between trademark and copyright, and when to engage a lawyer. The conversation focuses on strategies for defense in case something goes wrong with your IP, emphasizing the significance of both offense and defense in protecting your brand. Tune in for valuable insights on navigating the complexities of intellectual property rights.
Key Takeaways
1. Don't Panic, Drink Water, and Use Church Language
When faced with a cease and desist letter or a legal challenge related to your intellectual property, it's crucial to remain calm, take a sip of water, and respond with professionalism. Avoid responding in anger and always maintain a respectful tone, even in challenging situations.
2. Vet Your Attorney and Clients
Just as it's essential to have a trusted attorney who specializes in intellectual property law, it's equally important to vet your clients and potential business partners. Conduct thorough research, check references, and ensure that you are entering into agreements with reputable and trustworthy individuals or organizations.
3. Be Proactive in Protecting Your Brand
Whether it's through trademark enforcement or offensive strategies, it's vital to be proactive in protecting your brand and intellectual property. File for federal trademarks, monitor for potential infringements, and don't hesitate to seek legal counsel when needed. Remember, a good offense is often the best defense when it comes to safeguarding your business assets.
Timestamps
00:02:30 - Today's Focus: IP Enforcement - Offense and Defense
00:05:01 - Initial Reactions to Receiving a Cease and Desist
00:09:00 - Importance of Not Responding Emotionally
00:13:01 - Offensive Strategies: Protecting Your Mark
00:17:00 - Haggling and Negotiation Tactics
00:22:30 - Honesty with Your Attorney
00:26:42 - Specialized IP Attorneys vs. General Counsel
00:30:27 - Vetting Clients and Attorneys
00:34:14 - Final Advice: Offense and Defense in IP Protection
Jennifer Oladipo : Hello, world.
Jennifer Oladipo : This is Hello, Chaos, the podcast about the ups and downs, ins and outs, highlights and low, low, low points of entrepreneurship.
Jennifer Oladipo : We celebrate it all.
Jennifer Oladipo : And thank you so much for joining us.
Jennifer Oladipo : I am Jeno.
Jennifer Sutton: Oh, you're not going to say your full name.
Jennifer Oladipo : I am Jennifer Oladipa.
Jennifer Oladipo : A little rusty, I guess.
Jennifer Oladipo : OK, let me see that one over.
Jennifer Sutton: It's OK.
Jennifer Sutton: We'll just keep going.
Jennifer Sutton: That's the fun part.
Jennifer Sutton: This is Jeno, a.k.a.
Jennifer Sutton: Jennifer Oladipo.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oladipo all day, every day.
Jennifer Sutton: JJ.
Jennifer Sutton: And I love having in-studio guests.
Jennifer Sutton: And today, we've got Doug Lineberry from Burr & Foreman, attorney at The.
Jennifer Oladipo : Back by popular demand.
Jennifer Oladipo : I wasn't kidding.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yours was one of the most popular.
Jennifer Oladipo : I heard the most about it.
Jennifer Oladipo : And I'm just so glad to have you back.
Jennifer Sutton: All about IP protection, trademark protection.
Doug Lineberry: We really need to get y'all new friends.
Jennifer Sutton: But yeah, no, you were.
Jennifer Sutton: a very popular episode.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yeah, because the IP stuff is scary, and so brought you back today.
Jennifer Oladipo : And confusing.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : Sure.
Jennifer Oladipo : To talk, I think last time folks checked that one out, you talked about just kind of a general when to think about your intellectual property, what are some of the things that could happen, who doesn't think they need to think about IP.
Jennifer Sutton: The difference between trademark and copyright, the steps that you need to take, when do you need to engage a lawyer and
Jennifer Sutton: what type of lawyer you do you need to engage at those stages.
Jennifer Sutton: So that's in that first episode.
Jennifer Sutton: Yes.
Jennifer Oladipo : And today we're here to talk about, well, maybe if you don't follow all those tips or if something goes wrong.
Jennifer Sutton: Or if you do follow those steps, but you still… And something goes wrong.
Jennifer Sutton: Something goes wrong, right?
Jennifer Oladipo : Yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : So enforcement.
Jennifer Oladipo : So I guess what?
Jennifer Oladipo : It's offense and defense, right?
Jennifer Oladipo : That's what we're talking about.
Jennifer Oladipo : Absolutely.
Jennifer Oladipo : X's and O's.
Jennifer Oladipo : X's and O's.
Jennifer Sutton: Okay.
Jennifer Sutton: So offense, defense.
Jennifer Sutton: What do you…
Jennifer Sutton: What do you deal with first?
Jennifer Sutton: Offense, I guess?
Doug Lineberry: Or no?
Doug Lineberry: I'd say let's do defense.
Doug Lineberry: Let's do defense first.
Doug Lineberry: We'll call it D first, and then we can go O. Lil D?
Doug Lineberry: Because I think the Lil D's going wild.
Doug Lineberry: I'm so sorry.
Doug Lineberry: I am so sorry.
Doug Lineberry: That was good.
Jennifer Sutton: Good job, JJ.
Jennifer Sutton: We just went X rating.
Jennifer Oladipo : That's awesome.
Jennifer Oladipo : That's awesome.
Jennifer Oladipo : We lasted like two minutes.
Jennifer Oladipo : Straight out of the gate.
Jennifer Sutton: This is why we have an E rating on Spotify.
Doug Lineberry: This is why.
Doug Lineberry: All right.
Doug Lineberry: So when we're talking about Lil D, oh my lord.
Doug Lineberry: Oh, I'm so sorry.
Doug Lineberry: No, no, no.
Doug Lineberry: But Jeno and JJ, y'all do raise the right points.
Doug Lineberry: Because if you were to get a cease and desist letter in the mail, you're going to have a gut drop.
Doug Lineberry: If you don't have a gut drop, you're probably not in the moment.
Doug Lineberry: Because you've got someone who has sent you something and might even be served on you.
Doug Lineberry: You know, you can have a service processor come up and buy
Doug Lineberry: Boom, here's a complaint.
Doug Lineberry: Boom, here's a certified letter.
Doug Lineberry: Nobody wants those surprises.
Doug Lineberry: All of us want the day-to-day to be kind of a, hey, I go do my thing, I come home, it's chill.
Doug Lineberry: What could happen, though, is you're going to get a disruption.
Doug Lineberry: This disruption could be in the form of, hey, I have a complaint about how you're using your intellectual property.
Doug Lineberry: And it may be a complaint of, I think you're using my trademark.
Doug Lineberry: I think you're infringing my copyright.
Doug Lineberry: I think you're infringing my patent.
Doug Lineberry: Or maybe you're using my trade secrets.
Doug Lineberry: There are a lot of different slices of pie here.
Doug Lineberry: So you're going to get this letter.
Doug Lineberry: And what happens next is to quote the great sage.
Jennifer Oladipo : Can I ask a quick question?
Jennifer Oladipo : Is it always physical letters still?
Jennifer Oladipo : You know, sometimes you can get an email.
Doug Lineberry: It has advanced to the 21st century.
Doug Lineberry: But typically, if you've got an attorney, we're still old school.
Doug Lineberry: You may get an email, but you're definitely going to get a letter.
Jennifer Oladipo : Well, the reason I ask is because there's so much stuff in our inboxes that is there's a, yeah, I mean, do people ever miss these things?
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: They do.
Doug Lineberry: And again, you know, I'm bad, you know, checking your emails, especially on a hectic day when you're running around doing things, it's tough and invariably you will skip one.
Doug Lineberry: And so guys, if you do have one, a lot of the times, if I send one out on someone's behalf, I'll put a time limit in it.
Doug Lineberry: I'm like, hey, you need to get back to us by X. A couple things could happen.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe this is a hollow threat and they don't care.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe you've got, my client might be irate and be like, hey, if they don't get back to us, we're filing a suit.
Doug Lineberry: And so we really do need to be cognizant of this.
Doug Lineberry: Treat each of these as kind of like a loaded gun.
Doug Lineberry: And let's figure out what to do next.
Doug Lineberry: Now, in the words of that sage, Douglas Adams, don't panic.
Doug Lineberry: Because there are a lot of different avenues here.
Doug Lineberry: You're going to open this letter.
Doug Lineberry: Let's go trademark, just to be easy.
Doug Lineberry: Somebody says, hey, you're using Hello Chaos.
Doug Lineberry: And I don't think Hello Chaos is your mark.
Doug Lineberry: I own this mark.
Doug Lineberry: I'm in North Dakota, and I've been using this on a podcast for years.
Doug Lineberry: So you're going to see that at first.
Doug Lineberry: And of course, you're going to be offended, and you're going to get angry.
Doug Lineberry: You know, all the steps, brief as it were.
Doug Lineberry: But no, seriously, you will, because you're going to go through it.
Doug Lineberry: Now, I have a lot of clients come to me at the mad stage.
Doug Lineberry: I'm like, I cannot believe this.
Doug Lineberry: And some of them approach you with the, uh, what I do stage.
Doug Lineberry: And some are cavalier, just going, all right, whatever, let's see.
Doug Lineberry: But yeah, those are the dangerous ones.
Doug Lineberry: They're usually the most fun, but also dangerous.
Doug Lineberry: But what we want to do is understand that, hey, it's an academic exercise.
Doug Lineberry: We need to look at what's been alleged, and is there any truth to it?
Doug Lineberry: And again, we'll talk about the offensive aspect of it, too, but the defensive aspect of it is, did the other party who sent you that nasty gram, served you that letter, sent you that email, have they done their homework?
Doug Lineberry: You need to go back, and you have to know your own intellectual property.
Doug Lineberry: Let's kind of start with that as a base.
Doug Lineberry: Because if y'all been using Hello Chaos, let's say, for five years,
Doug Lineberry: And you've got the ability to show, hey, I've been using it for five years.
Doug Lineberry: And you go look at this other side, and maybe they've not been using it five years, or maybe they just filed a federal trademark.
Doug Lineberry: That gives you some options.
Doug Lineberry: Another thing is, how similar are their uses?
Doug Lineberry: Let's say that the Hello Chaos in North Dakota is for mining equipment.
Doug Lineberry: And they're like, hey, we're Hello Chaos Mining, and you're Hello Chaos the Podcast.
Doug Lineberry: Your retort's gonna be kind of a, huh?
Doug Lineberry: And it's like, I don't understand.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah, I'm not selling conveyor belts, I'm not selling mining equipment.
Jennifer Oladipo : Because the main idea is that they're alleging that by using their trademark, you're impacting their ability to do business.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: You're impacting their brand, you're somehow diverting sales, you're causing them damage of some sort.
Doug Lineberry: And y'all, if it's very disparate goods or services, you know, your first response back might be like, uh-uh.
Doug Lineberry: But to go get that uh-uh, don't do this yourself.
Doug Lineberry: Because there's a horrible little thing in evidence called admission by a party opponent.
Doug Lineberry: And that means that if you get on the phone and start screaming back at them, or if you start angry typing, we're not going to do any of those.
Doug Lineberry: First thing you're going to do is go get a drink of water after you read the letter.
Jennifer Sutton: And then call the attorney.
Jennifer Sutton: And call an attorney.
Doug Lineberry: And I know it's an attorney saying, call an attorney.
Doug Lineberry: Trust me.
Doug Lineberry: Because if you call North Dakota, and let's say they are a podcast, and you're like, I've done this, and I've done that, and I've been using this long.
Doug Lineberry: What if they're recording that?
Doug Lineberry: You know what I mean?
Doug Lineberry: So we want to make certain that all powder is kept dry here.
Doug Lineberry: We don't want any off-the-cuff reactions.
Doug Lineberry: We definitely don't want an emotional response.
Doug Lineberry: What we want to have is a thought-out, coherent response that addresses their issues.
Doug Lineberry: It may be as simple as going to an attorney, them reading the letter and being like, man, what's this about?
Doug Lineberry: Checking into it, seeing what the other mark is, seeing what their business is, et cetera.
Jennifer Sutton: What's the argument?
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: What are our counters to this?
Doug Lineberry: Are there any?
Doug Lineberry: Lo and behold, maybe this person's been using it.
Doug Lineberry: But there are a couple different things, too.
Doug Lineberry: We'll switch to offense for a second.
Doug Lineberry: If someone were to hit you with this, one thing you ought to look at is say, this is my trademark.
Doug Lineberry: I've been using it.
Doug Lineberry: How have they protected that mark?
Doug Lineberry: You know, there's some very poignant weapons.
Doug Lineberry: If they have, for example, a registered federal trademark, you can file what's called a cancellation proceeding.
Doug Lineberry: I'm on a couple of those now, and unfortunately, it's kind of a poking the bear or poking the dragon situation.
Doug Lineberry: Make certain you've got your powder draw, because if you're the person sending out this letter, what if you send it to someone who's been using the trademark first?
Doug Lineberry: What if you send it to someone who's like, I've got a big war chest and I don't want you messing with me.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe I'm going to attack your mark and get it canceled.
Doug Lineberry: So this has to be done in a coherent.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: And I mean, you know, I think that's the exact right response.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: Whoa.
Doug Lineberry: See that coming?
Doug Lineberry: Because I've had clients before like, I've been using this mark for X many years.
Doug Lineberry: You tell me what we need to do to fight it and we'll fight it.
Doug Lineberry: That's not what the person on the other side wants to hear.
Doug Lineberry: And especially in the, hey, we've been using this a lot longer than you, and Lord forbid, you know, you could try to beat them to the trademark office that they're not filed.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, there's some definite ways that you can do this.
Jennifer Sutton: And it's not necessarily like names and logos, right?
Jennifer Sutton: It can be… Oh, sure.
Doug Lineberry: Trademarks can protect sounds, smells.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, so like the Netflix little…
Jennifer Oladipo : Yes, exactly.
Jennifer Sutton: For the Intel?
Jennifer Sutton: And the NBC?
Doug Lineberry: Oh, better yet, you guys walk into a Verizon store and just smell the air.
Doug Lineberry: There's a trademark on the smell in a Verizon store.
Doug Lineberry: So guess what?
Doug Lineberry: Hey, if Hello Chaos starts doing this, hey, we smell like a Verizon store, you're going to get a letter from Verizon going, why do you smell like a Verizon store?
Doug Lineberry: Or guess what?
Doug Lineberry: If you guys start making motorcycles and you're like, I sound just like a Harley, you're going to get a letter from Harley Davidson going, that's our sound.
Doug Lineberry: You need to step off and let's talk damages.
Doug Lineberry: I love this.
Doug Lineberry: So yeah, I mean, y'all, it really is sort of heady stuff.
Doug Lineberry: You're just like, oh my gosh, what all does it protect?
Doug Lineberry: But you know, JJ, you're right.
Doug Lineberry: It's not just a logo.
Doug Lineberry: It's not just a name or a name.
Doug Lineberry: It's a lot of other different things.
Jennifer Sutton: Is there, like, close to a designer using the same colors?
Jennifer Sutton: Is that something?
Doug Lineberry: John Deere Green.
Doug Lineberry: None of us can set up a tractor supply company and paint it John Deere Green.
Doug Lineberry: That's protected.
Doug Lineberry: The Boise State football field.
Doug Lineberry: Guess what?
Doug Lineberry: We cannot go over to JL Mann, paint it that color blue, and start having football games.
Doug Lineberry: We are going to get a cease and desist from them.
Doug Lineberry: And so, that's kind of our defensive statures.
Doug Lineberry: Hey, are we
Doug Lineberry: the wrongdoer here, or are we in the wrong, or is this just something that we need to negotiate?
Doug Lineberry: Because I'll remind you all this little fact, 99% of all cases settle.
Doug Lineberry: And what that means is, is they reach some middle ground.
Doug Lineberry: And so again, that's why we hearken back to Douglas Adams.
Doug Lineberry: Don't panic.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe they're full bore, we're going to fight you to the end of time.
Doug Lineberry: That's the one percenters.
Doug Lineberry: Most of the time they're like, hey, let's figure out something so we can both coexist.
Doug Lineberry: Sometimes I'd say, you go away, but most times I'd say, all right, what can we do to tolerate each other?
Doug Lineberry: Oh, interesting.
Doug Lineberry: So there's hope.
Doug Lineberry: There is hope.
Doug Lineberry: There absolutely is.
Doug Lineberry: So let's talk offensively for a second.
Doug Lineberry: So you know what to do if we get that letter?
Doug Lineberry: Run screaming to an attorney after you panic like I told you not to.
Doug Lineberry: Drink the water.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: Drink the water.
Doug Lineberry: Type back angry.
Doug Lineberry: Remember all these rules.
Doug Lineberry: And only type it to your lawyer.
Doug Lineberry: Call and be recorded having a tirade to the other side.
Doug Lineberry: Your attorneys love that.
Jennifer Oladipo : Threats?
Jennifer Oladipo : Should we add threats to this?
Doug Lineberry: I think threats are great.
Doug Lineberry: I'm coming, you know?
Doug Lineberry: It's like, have you ever seen that movie with Liam Nelson in it?
Doug Lineberry: I am coming for you.
Doug Lineberry: You know, it's like, no, no, I'd prefer you didn't do that.
Doug Lineberry: But if you did, you're going to be billed a lot more.
Doug Lineberry: You will get what is called the RAC 1 rate.
Doug Lineberry: You don't actually want to understand what that means coming from an attorney.
Doug Lineberry: So trust me, don't panic.
Doug Lineberry: Don't respond.
Doug Lineberry: Go to your attorney after having a nice cool sip of water.
Doug Lineberry: But let's reverse it.
Doug Lineberry: OK, we see a Hello Chaos for a podcast in LA.
Doug Lineberry: We're like, ah, we're not exactly cool with that.
Doug Lineberry: So, you know, we're a podcast.
Doug Lineberry: We're Hello Chaos.
Doug Lineberry: We're out on the East Coast, but we're growing.
Doug Lineberry: And our plan is to be nationwide, eventually worldwide.
Doug Lineberry: You know, that's what we're going to do.
Doug Lineberry: So, there's an onus on us to protect our mark.
Doug Lineberry: And you're like, what do you mean onus?
Doug Lineberry: Now, JJ, you'll love this.
Doug Lineberry: It's not a double entendre.
Doug Lineberry: It's actually a legal term.
Doug Lineberry: Naked licensing.
Doug Lineberry: And what that means is, if we let that LA firm, that LA podcast do their thing and we don't say anything about it, after a while… We've kind of given them permission to exist.
Jennifer Sutton: Exactly.
Doug Lineberry: Because it is called a naked license, meaning it's not actually written down.
Doug Lineberry: There's not a contract for it.
Doug Lineberry: You've just turned them loose.
Doug Lineberry: And a lot of people do that because,
Doug Lineberry: It takes time and attention and money to go after these folks, but here's the problem.
Doug Lineberry: Let's say we've waited and we knew of them, and now all of a sudden this got real.
Doug Lineberry: We've become one of those 1% cases that starts to litigate.
Doug Lineberry: You're going to be deposed.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, JJ, you or Jen O are going to be sat down.
Doug Lineberry: It's like, when did you know about us?
Doug Lineberry: What did you know?
Doug Lineberry: How long have you known it?
Doug Lineberry: And it'll be somebody like me who comes across as so disarming, and we'll just talk, and we'll have a great time.
Doug Lineberry: I'm going to comment on, oh my God, this shirt is awesome.
Doug Lineberry: Where'd you get that ring?
Doug Lineberry: Trust me that we've got a whole litany.
Doug Lineberry: The good ones of us come across as human.
Doug Lineberry: It's weird.
Doug Lineberry: But you guys will be put under that microscope.
Doug Lineberry: And so when we're offensive, we need to remember offensive is both a I'm going to get you and I'm going to be hostile about it.
Doug Lineberry: So we have to protect our marks.
Doug Lineberry: We have to do it in a smart way, though.
Doug Lineberry: Because let's find out that the hell chaos has been out for 15 years.
Doug Lineberry: Guess what?
Doug Lineberry: Maybe they turn around and attack our mark with a cancellation or an opposition, depending on where it's at in the process, the trademark office.
Doug Lineberry: But really what we want to do is let's get our powder dry.
Doug Lineberry: Let's do this intelligently.
Doug Lineberry: Just like getting that letter, sending that letter is just as important.
Doug Lineberry: Because if you ever receive a letter and it's specious and it's wrong, the person who receives it is going to be like, well, this is crap.
Doug Lineberry: And then you explain why it's crap, and the attorney on the other side's like, I really wish I'd known some of this before I'd sent you.
Jennifer Sutton: Like I didn't do my homework, or my client didn't inform me.
Doug Lineberry: I didn't do homework, or the client didn't tell me all of it, or maybe.
Jennifer Oladipo : So then, should business owners, I mean, how do you, because how are we to know of every other startup that's on the West Coast that's, you know, just suddenly has designs on growth, and we're suddenly in each other's territory or whatever.
Doug Lineberry: Beautiful.
Doug Lineberry: That's a great question, Janelle, and you're going to find it organically.
Doug Lineberry: You know, we have what's called the discovery rule.
Doug Lineberry: You know, when did you find out about it?
Doug Lineberry: You're not assumed to be omniscient.
Doug Lineberry: You know, but what you can do, there are certain programs we can hire to look at trademarks that are being filed.
Doug Lineberry: I've got some clients that do that.
Doug Lineberry: If someone tries to file on a mark that is close to one of their marks, we're pinged.
Doug Lineberry: And then it's told, hey, we just had an application filed at the trademark office for XYZ.
Doug Lineberry: It's very similar to your client's XXX or YYY, whatever the mark is.
Doug Lineberry: And so there are ways that we can anticipate it and see what's out there.
Doug Lineberry: You can reach out to them early.
Doug Lineberry: I just had one.
Doug Lineberry: I think we'll get it resolved this week, but it ended up very, very easy.
Doug Lineberry: The person found out about my client's mark and then actually changed their mark to something else.
Doug Lineberry: And I'm like, wow, easiest of all worlds.
Doug Lineberry: And so now we're working with them on transfer of the rights, transfer of everything else, so that my client, the senior user, really doesn't have to have much heartburn.
Doug Lineberry: And indeed, they're going to have a call, the two disparate parties are going to have a call to see if they can work together.
Doug Lineberry: You know, that is definitely a way in the same category, because of whatever.
Doug Lineberry: They are in a particular industry, and they're both in that industry, and they want to open up similar venues.
Doug Lineberry: And so I'm being clandestine, I know.
Doug Lineberry: No, I get it.
Doug Lineberry: But, you know, hey, guess what?
Doug Lineberry: They're going to have a conversation with each other and see if there's a way for synergy as opposed to warfare.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, to actually work together.
Jennifer Oladipo : Absolutely.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, OK.
Jennifer Oladipo : That would be the kind thing.
Jennifer Oladipo : That would be the kind thing.
Doug Lineberry: The economical thing, the common sense thing.
Jennifer Oladipo : I mean, so you can just have the discussion, right?
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, is this a business opportunity actually?
Jennifer Oladipo : That's right.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: And one thing I will tell everybody listening to the podcast, don't be afraid to haggle.
Doug Lineberry: Oh my gosh, we Americans are so terrible at haggling.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: And it's like, look, I realize going to McDonald's trying to haggle for a Big Mac's a little awkward.
Doug Lineberry: Try it, but in a legal situation, do it.
Doug Lineberry: As Yoda said, there is no try.
Doug Lineberry: In a legal situation, you haggle.
Doug Lineberry: You go out, you figure out what terms you want, and again, you ask for 10 to get five.
Doug Lineberry: Remember that adage, ask for 10 to get five.
Doug Lineberry: Don't go in there thinking, okay, I'm honest, John, and this is exactly what I want, because they're going to, the other side will view that as your 10, and they're going to cut it in half.
Doug Lineberry: And so you need to understand where your fat and happy is and how much of that you can have cut off without freezing to death.
Doug Lineberry: But this is something, guys, that we just, as Americans, we don't do.
Doug Lineberry: And their attorneys are not very good at it either.
Doug Lineberry: And you need to sit back and think, hey, what are my middle grounds?
Doug Lineberry: And you need to address this with the other side and say, hey, tell me where we can live with each other.
Doug Lineberry: And then they'll give you back their 10.
Doug Lineberry: And you've got to figure out your five.
Doug Lineberry: Or if they ask you and say, hey, you know, I want yours, you give them your 10, knowing that you'll accept a five.
Doug Lineberry: And so you figure out how to deal with that, but that should be the way we would handle a lot of this stuff.
Doug Lineberry: Now granted, there's times when you get a nastiness.
Doug Lineberry: You know, let's talk domain names, for instance.
Doug Lineberry: If someone were to open up hellochaos.net.org, whatever, that y'all didn't have, there are ways that we can make them forfeit that.
Doug Lineberry: And that is one of those situations where you're not okay with them doing this, and you're not
Doug Lineberry: to try to seek a middle ground because you're like, hey, this is such a unique name.
Doug Lineberry: You probably bought it, A, after we started being out in the public, and B, solely for the purpose of trying to get us to purchase it from you, called being a troll, which is not cool.
Doug Lineberry: And so what you want to do is to realize, you know, go to your attorney, let's figure out what the situation is.
Doug Lineberry: Because if there's a Hello Chaos that's been out there for 20 years, there are things we can do.
Doug Lineberry: You know, there's a concept where you could file a federal trademark, and you simply lock them into a little bitty spot.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe you'll figure out how to co-ex with each other, co-exist, and to figure out, you can do this, and I can do that, and never the twain shall meet.
Doug Lineberry: And maybe you merge at some point and become partners.
Doug Lineberry: Who knows?
Doug Lineberry: But there are a lot of different ways to sort of skin the cat.
Doug Lineberry: But one thing we always want to do, either offense or defense, is to make certain that we're protecting those marks.
Doug Lineberry: And I don't mean just filing them and getting them out there.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, if we see a hello chaos on the coast… To defend them.
Doug Lineberry: We need to be like, hey, this is my mark, and I don't want to lose it due to naked licensing, or I don't want to have a situation to where maybe I've not fully protected my marks.
Doug Lineberry: I see that these guys are out there and sort of nascent.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe there are actions I need to take right now to protect that mark.
Jennifer Sutton: So you've got my wheels turning now, Doc.
Jennifer Sutton: Oh, sorry, sorry.
Doug Lineberry: I didn't mean to click machine gears in, but yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : So if you didn't do your paperwork, let's call it, but you've legitimately been using it and operating as a business and everything like that, you're saying there is some recourse for perhaps.
Jennifer Oladipo : There are.
Jennifer Sutton: To kind of walk backwards and go, okay, I didn't know I needed to protect these things.
Doug Lineberry: Sure, sure.
Doug Lineberry: And yeah, now there's also some unfortunate situations.
Doug Lineberry: They can have the fishbowl.
Doug Lineberry: Let's say that we're Hello Chaos and we didn't file, which we have, we filed, we're good.
Doug Lineberry: But let's say we hadn't and that there is a 20-year-old Hello Chaos that's everywhere.
Doug Lineberry: and they filed a federal trademark, but they're younger than us.
Doug Lineberry: You know, we're 20 years old, they're five years old.
Doug Lineberry: They roll in and they've got the ability to lock us into a little bitty fishbowl and say, hey, you guys are now here and everybody will say, oh, the internet covers everything.
Doug Lineberry: Courts aren't that mature yet.
Doug Lineberry: You know, it's gonna count where you're advertising, where you're doing physical usage, you know, where are we at, where are expenditures being made, et cetera.
Doug Lineberry: Much smaller than most people who would say like, I've got a podcast, therefore I cover the planet.
Doug Lineberry: No, you're probably restricted to Des Moines based on what your advertising budget is.
Doug Lineberry: You know, the podcast that you've got 100,000 listening to doesn't matter if they're in Tokyo.
Doug Lineberry: It's really going to matter on what have you done locally to get that mark out there and to protect it than that.
Doug Lineberry: That is still where the courts are locked.
Doug Lineberry: Very interesting.
Jennifer Oladipo : So they could effectively still sort of put you… They trap you.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: They trap you.
Doug Lineberry: And that's, again, that's why you file and get federal protection, because that gives you the better card in that situation.
Doug Lineberry: The offense.
Doug Lineberry: It does.
Doug Lineberry: The best defense is a good offense, as people say.
Doug Lineberry: But I'm with y'all on this.
Doug Lineberry: It's like we have to be knowledgeable about it.
Doug Lineberry: But again, don't panic.
Doug Lineberry: We're going to have to go back and be honest about it.
Doug Lineberry: Keep track of when you create your marks.
Doug Lineberry: That's a good way to be able to say, I was using this in 17.
Doug Lineberry: Oh, look, here is this flyer that I put out saying, hey, come down to the west end of Greenville for one of our podcasts.
Doug Lineberry: You know, having that sort of material at hand is so easy.
Doug Lineberry: And y'all, I mean, it happens with sophisticated clients.
Doug Lineberry: I've had clients before who will, interestingly enough- Like big corporations.
Doug Lineberry: Sure, big universities.
Doug Lineberry: They will come to an attorney and be like, I need to file this.
Doug Lineberry: You're like, all right.
Doug Lineberry: And I'll send back a list of questions of, tell me how long you've been using it.
Doug Lineberry: And, you know, I've had clients who've been using a mark for close to 20 years and just filed for it.
Doug Lineberry: And you're like, holy moly.
Doug Lineberry: And I'll do the search on that one, kind of sweating on their behalf.
Doug Lineberry: There have been 16 years of trademarks filed between this and now.
Doug Lineberry: And sometimes you come back with a whoosh.
Doug Lineberry: We need to file this thing yesterday.
Doug Lineberry: Got to go."
Doug Lineberry: And sometimes you come back with a, I have bad news for you.
Doug Lineberry: And it might not be an exact one.
Doug Lineberry: And we can't file this.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: You can't get this mark that you've spent all this time on.
Doug Lineberry: So y'all, that therein lies the good offense.
Doug Lineberry: File those marks, be aggressive about that, and be cost conscious.
Doug Lineberry: Don't file on every little word you ever think of.
Doug Lineberry: But if it is your company's McDonald's Golden Arches, protect it because it'll be done.
Doug Lineberry: Or your sound.
Doug Lineberry: Or your sound.
Doug Lineberry: Or your smell.
Doug Lineberry: Or your color.
Doug Lineberry: Or your color.
Doug Lineberry: Or your smell.
Doug Lineberry: That's absolutely it.
Doug Lineberry: If that is your baby and that's how the consumers recognize you, protect it.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : So, I want to get into a little bit of the, back to those seven stages of grief, you know, because now that we know exactly like what to do, how do you talk people through that when those things happen?
Doug Lineberry: Yeah, first thing you do is meet or Zoom.
Doug Lineberry: This is not a telephone thing.
Doug Lineberry: You need the client to actually get familiar with you, because guess what?
Doug Lineberry: You're going to start digging.
Doug Lineberry: You're going to start asking a lot of questions.
Doug Lineberry: You're going to say, hey, I need to know it.
Doug Lineberry: So build a rapport with whoever your counsel is.
Doug Lineberry: I know it sounds so silly and touchy-touchy, but it's a great thing to do, especially in an age where everybody still likes to be a keyboard warrior.
Doug Lineberry: This is the person you're asking to protect your brand.
Doug Lineberry: Be comfortable with them.
Doug Lineberry: Sit down with them.
Doug Lineberry: Understand that they take it seriously.
Doug Lineberry: So that first step is communication.
Doug Lineberry: And again, be open about it.
Doug Lineberry: Tell us what, if there's hair on the mole, please tell us.
Doug Lineberry: Because if you don't and you try to hide it, the other side may find it out and throw it back.
Doug Lineberry: And then, unfortunately, we're on our back foot peddling because, oh wow.
Doug Lineberry: You can't make your argument.
Jennifer Oladipo : What kinds of things do people try to hide from you?
Jennifer Oladipo : You know, not try to hide.
Doug Lineberry: Let's go with the innocence, the naivete approach here.
Jennifer Oladipo : Forget to mention to you.
Doug Lineberry: That's it!
Doug Lineberry: That's a better way to do it.
Doug Lineberry: Forget to mention consciously.
Jennifer Sutton: I love how Jeno's always like the nefarious side.
Doug Lineberry: Jeno, law school awaits you if you want to go there.
Doug Lineberry: I'm just saying.
Doug Lineberry: The avenue's always open.
Jennifer Oladipo : You know what?
Jennifer Oladipo : Half the people in law school when I was in journalism school were like, yeah, I thought about journalism school.
Jennifer Oladipo : And half the J school kids thought
Doug Lineberry: That's right, that's right.
Doug Lineberry: It's just kind of an exchange program.
Doug Lineberry: You're like, all right, we're here for a year.
Jennifer Oladipo : We're always the ones to shut down the parties, too.
Jennifer Oladipo : The last two drinkers are the J school and the law school.
Jennifer Oladipo : I don't know what that says about society.
Jennifer Oladipo : Alcoholism and conscious narcissism.
Doug Lineberry: But no, y'all have got the right thing.
Doug Lineberry: What do they try to hide?
Doug Lineberry: And that's really, it's an awesome question because don't try to hide something from your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: It all will out.
Doug Lineberry: You know, for patents, for instance, one thing that somebody might hide is, hey, you know, I've been selling this thing for a while.
Doug Lineberry: Because for a patent, if you've been selling it more than a year, you can't protect it.
Doug Lineberry: And if you go to your attorney and you're like, hey, I wasn't selling this morning here, the attorney's going to be like, well, unless you have some significant changes over this particular model, you can't get a patent on it.
Doug Lineberry: So somebody might hide that one from you and be like, oh, no, no, never hit it.
Doug Lineberry: But if you have a competitor comes out who challenges your patent, they're going to find it.
Doug Lineberry: You know, for trademarks, hiding it, you know, where'd you get your idea for this?
Doug Lineberry: You know, what if you are intentionally trying to copy somebody else's mark?
Doug Lineberry: You know, what if you were like, yeah, man, I looked at it, because if you've had conversations with folks in your company about, oh my gosh, you know, look at that McDonald's arch, it's so elegant, we should do that for us.
Doug Lineberry: Let's make ours look like it, but we'll make it red and angular.
Doug Lineberry: Well, guess what?
Doug Lineberry: If you've been telling everybody, hey, I want to look like McDonald's, that's why I chose this.
Doug Lineberry: That doesn't go so well in the litigation scenario.
Doug Lineberry: Other things, just trying to think of it.
Doug Lineberry: Delay, and again, I'm not even saying that's conscious, but a lot of people hit it with the, oh my gosh, it costs money, oh my gosh, I'll think about it.
Doug Lineberry: But y'all know what a Tuesday's like.
Doug Lineberry: You want to turn around and the next thing is, it's next Tuesday.
Doug Lineberry: And then it's three Tuesdays away.
Doug Lineberry: And all of a sudden, you've had somebody file a similar trademark, and then you come back to the attorney like, time to go.
Doug Lineberry: And the attorney's like, time to not.
Doug Lineberry: It's like, I've got some bad news, we gotta figure this out.
Doug Lineberry: But again, y'all, the main thing is, again, be honest with your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: Even if it's uncomfortable, because guess what?
Doug Lineberry: You would rather be given the bad news by your attorney than by the other side.
Doug Lineberry: And then your attorney almost, they don't become an enemy, but they definitely are looking at you with a raised eyebrow going,
Doug Lineberry: What else did you not share?
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: You've stuck my neck out.
Doug Lineberry: I just got it chopped off.
Doug Lineberry: We need to have a heart-to-heart now.
Doug Lineberry: It causes a loss of credibility.
Doug Lineberry: It absolutely does.
Jennifer Sutton: And it makes your job harder.
Jennifer Sutton: Absolutely.
Jennifer Sutton: Okay.
Jennifer Oladipo : So at what point does somebody have to consider sharing this situation with the team, right?
Jennifer Oladipo : You're a founder.
Jennifer Oladipo : You're hit with this thing.
Jennifer Oladipo : Great question.
Jennifer Oladipo : And maybe if you're an established company, when does it get to?
Doug Lineberry: Great question.
Doug Lineberry: And all hands on deck kind of thing.
Doug Lineberry: Well, first thing, I'm going to say, it depends, because that's the longer answer.
Doug Lineberry: But a smaller, no, but seriously, a smaller organization that only had a couple of principals, y'all are going to tell each other immediately, hey, you know, Jeno's going to get it, and go, JJ, you won't believe what we got in the mail.
Doug Lineberry: You'd sit down, you'd digest it.
Doug Lineberry: Now, if y'all have 5,000 employees, do you put it on an all points bulletin?
Doug Lineberry: You do not.
Doug Lineberry: You know, you're going to want to handle this, and again, a slow, thoughtful, non-panicked manner.
Doug Lineberry: You know, because, hey, you know, guess what?
Doug Lineberry: Some of these are crap.
Doug Lineberry: You know, you'll have somebody send you something that's just wasteful, and it's like, all right, this is just a waste of time.
Doug Lineberry: Now you might have to do damage control.
Jennifer Sutton: Because it's more just like a bullying tactic.
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: And again, that is one of the offensive uses of it.
Doug Lineberry: If you want to try to stymie somebody in the market, if you want to try to push them back down, if you want to put a finger on them and maybe keep them from expanding so fast, completely your option.
Doug Lineberry: But again, if you do it with bad facts, they're just going to smack you in the face and be like, nope.
Doug Lineberry: And again, now that you've had this situation sort of undressed by the other side,
Doug Lineberry: It's gonna be like, oh, wow, you were alleging and made all these allegations.
Doug Lineberry: Well, here are all my counters that are actually based in fact, and yours aren't.
Doug Lineberry: That's kind of a bad thing.
Doug Lineberry: And their attorney, too, is gonna, they might posture and come back with you like, we'll be watching you.
Doug Lineberry: But again, no, as soon as they say it in their voice, it's like that Harry Potter thing where you open the letter and it's like, we'll be watching you.
Doug Lineberry: It also means, yeah, from a distance because we don't like the way these facts worked out.
Doug Lineberry: Right.
Doug Lineberry: So that is my main thing for folks is you've got to have that candor with counsel always.
Doug Lineberry: And I get it.
Doug Lineberry: Sometimes it hurts and sometimes you don't like the advice.
Doug Lineberry: You won't like it more than the bill when the attorney has to come behind you with a push room to pick up
Doug Lineberry: at the pieces, you know?
Doug Lineberry: You know, other protections too, y'all, it's like you've got to think of it, and again, I'll tell you this, if it's not yours, don't touch it.
Doug Lineberry: You know, if somebody looks at Hello Chaos on this podcast like, oh, I want to be Hello Chasm, or I want to be Hello Randomness, or Hello Frenetic Energy, no.
Doug Lineberry: You know, no.
Doug Lineberry: Use your creative muscle.
Doug Lineberry: It is.
Doug Lineberry: Go a different way.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, you know, you've nailed it on the head.
Doug Lineberry: Be creative and go a different way.
Doug Lineberry: Influenced by it, that's fine.
Doug Lineberry: Mimicry, mm-mm.
Doug Lineberry: Not cool.
Doug Lineberry: And outright copying, absolutely not cool.
Doug Lineberry: But that also falls true for any sampling music, taking lyrics from a song, copying stuff from a webpage.
Doug Lineberry: Those letters of, hey, you did something bad, you need to say, hey, did I?
Doug Lineberry: That's your first question.
Doug Lineberry: If the answer is, I did not, then you're going to respond accordingly.
Doug Lineberry: If the answer is like, maybe I did, tell your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: Figure out where there's a way to reach this middle ground.
Doug Lineberry: But again, if it's completely baseless and you're just like, I didn't do this, I don't know what's going on, tell your attorney that.
Doug Lineberry: But say, hey, yeah, we were kind of influenced by this, or yeah, definitely listed that from the website.
Doug Lineberry: What do we do?
Doug Lineberry: Allow the attorney to at least have that information.
Doug Lineberry: Because trust me, you might just get a bland letter, but there's a bunch more evidence on the other side we haven't seen yet.
Doug Lineberry: So you can't act like they don't know what you did.
Doug Lineberry: You have to be like, attorney, let me tell you what happened, and let's figure it out from there.
Jennifer Oladipo : And one more question, one last question.
Jennifer Oladipo : You said on the previous episode that it's really important to get an IP attorney who's in your field, right?
Jennifer Oladipo : But if the complaint is coming from somebody in a different area of business, or a different category, I guess, do you have to then try to get somebody else on your team who is specializing in that category?
Doug Lineberry: Like what?
Doug Lineberry: Give me an example.
Jennifer Oladipo : Well, you said an example earlier.
Jennifer Oladipo : Maybe ours is a podcast, but theirs is a tractor company or something like that.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Doug Lineberry: Would you need somebody experienced particularly in that area?
Doug Lineberry: Probably for a cease and desist letter, not for the initial stages.
Doug Lineberry: And granted, if it were a patent case, and they're coming out saying, hey, this is your device, and this is my widget, and you only speak podcast widgets, and they're talking mining widgets, yeah.
Doug Lineberry: you probably do want to find, if not an attorney, an expert in the area who can say, hey, how do these two interact with each other?
Doug Lineberry: Because the IP attorneys should be pretty good about saying, hey, I'll tell you the waters I surf and the waters I don't surf.
Doug Lineberry: If they're saying they surf everything, just feed them to the sharks and be done with them because that's not good.
Doug Lineberry: I'm just telling you, if I don't do it, I'll tell you it's out of my wheelhouse.
Doug Lineberry: I've got partners who will do it.
Doug Lineberry: But y'all, it's easier for me to sleep at night knowing that I'm not like, I can do all things for all people.
Doug Lineberry: It's like, hell no.
Doug Lineberry: What I can do is I can do a good job on the things I know.
Doug Lineberry: And if I don't know it, I'll send you to somebody who does.
Jennifer Sutton: Or specifically, look for an IP trademark attorney, not just a general counsel.
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: And not knocking a general counsel, a lot of them do a lot of things well.
Doug Lineberry: But IP all speaks its own language.
Doug Lineberry: When I say I received a 2D, everybody's eyebrow goes up.
Doug Lineberry: Because that means, hey, I had a trademark cited against my application.
Doug Lineberry: You need somebody who speaks that speak, because when you get that cease and desist letter, it's going to be speaking that speak.
Doug Lineberry: and it's gonna say Lanham Act violations, and it's gonna say infringement, and it's gonna say trouble damages.
Doug Lineberry: And you don't want somebody who is a real estate attorney, and again, not knocking them, they do a good job as a real estate attorney, but going to them with an IP matter is inviting chaos instead of trying to shield you from it.
Jennifer Oladipo : So do you just, I mean, should people just have, like, I mean, if you're starting a business, especially a lot of our audience is gonna be people who are maybe in their earlier stages, and maybe didn't even know that they should be dealing with this stuff.
Jennifer Oladipo : What's a good, do you just kind of introduce yourself to an attorney and meet one without retaining them?
Jennifer Oladipo : Like, how do you?
Jennifer Oladipo : Yeah, absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, there's tons of organizations will help you find a good attorney.
Doug Lineberry: Call the South Carolina bar.
Doug Lineberry: Say, hey, I'm looking for an attorney in this area.
Doug Lineberry: Your state bar, wherever you are.
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: South Carolina, Nevada, wherever you're at.
Doug Lineberry: Say, hey, I'm looking for somebody.
Doug Lineberry: You know, and again, you can always go to the yellow pages.
Doug Lineberry: But remember, just because they're advertising doesn't mean they're necessarily good.
Doug Lineberry: Find out their reputation.
Doug Lineberry: And again, I'm not knocking the guys that advertise, but I'm saying that you use the client, do have some homework to do.
Doug Lineberry: Because hey, this is your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: It's not like, hey, this is my disposable fork.
Doug Lineberry: This is the person who's going to be representing you and protecting your IP.
Doug Lineberry: Make certain you're comfortable with them.
Doug Lineberry: Ask around, see what their reputation is.
Jennifer Sutton: Like, so other founders or CEOs in your category or just in your community that you're connected with, just to say, who are you using to trademark?
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely, get you a few names and kick their tires.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, I encourage clients to do that with me all the time.
Doug Lineberry: It's like, hey, ask around, talk to other people, sort of get a job on this, because you need to make certain they're comfortable.
Doug Lineberry: And again, I stick to my guns on this.
Doug Lineberry: If the attorney's wanting to do everything remotely or everything via phone or everything via email, I want to make it a little hinky.
Doug Lineberry: If you want to meet your attorney, meet your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: The attorney will all be like, let's meet.
Doug Lineberry: Let's find a middle ground.
Doug Lineberry: Come to my office.
Doug Lineberry: I'll meet you for lunch.
Doug Lineberry: Because if that person's handling your things, you want that touch.
Doug Lineberry: You want to be able to say, hey, I know what they look like in a police lineup.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe you don't want to see them there, but I know what he looks like, or she.
Doug Lineberry: So y'all laugh, but honestly, we're getting that step in society where everybody's so comfortable being separated.
Doug Lineberry: And y'all, it's like the legal practice is not a separate thing.
Doug Lineberry: I mean, it is your business and how we protect that or defend off whatever's coming to us.
Doug Lineberry: Make certain you've got a good rapport with that person.
Doug Lineberry: Right.
Jennifer Sutton: Well, you know, I look at that as, you know, not just IP and trademark and have an attorney that can help.
Jennifer Sutton: But we also look at this from a, you know, contract attorney or general counsel to go help us get our legal language and our, you know, and how we do business and how we're getting paid and make sure our terms and and stuff.
Jennifer Sutton: And I can't stress that enough of.
Jennifer Sutton: But those are two separate kind of skill sets.
Jennifer Sutton: And they are.
Doug Lineberry: And you will want an attorney who's willing to say, I don't do that, because if the attorney says, I do everything, they're probably not really good at any of it.
Doug Lineberry: And again, not slandering anybody specifically, just saying, hey, if it is a niche area, make certain they speak the niche.
Doug Lineberry: But y'all, you know, you raise a good point though, JJ.
Doug Lineberry: It's like, look, these contracts and these agreements, you got to make certain you have them, just like your IP.
Doug Lineberry: If you don't have that, and God forbid, do not go to the internet and pull it down.
Doug Lineberry: Because if you pull a document off the internet, you have no idea if it was crafted under a California auspice, a New York auspice, a Florida auspice.
Doug Lineberry: Because trust me, a California doc's not going to work so well in South Carolina and vice versa.
Doug Lineberry: So be very careful about that.
Jennifer Sutton: And that was kind of a lesson learned on the marketing side of the business.
Jennifer Sutton: When I started that in 2013, we got a general counsel and they just kind of gave us a draft contract.
Jennifer Sutton: we weren't savvy in how to defend the process.
Jennifer Sutton: Sure, haggle, haggle.
Jennifer Sutton: And the haggle, but also the attorney, you need to hide behind.
Jennifer Sutton: If you're nervous to set it in front, and they're like, that's your process, be strong about it.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right.
Jennifer Sutton: And we got taken advantage of a client down in, I'm going to say, Florida.
Jennifer Sutton: This is like, never do business in Florida.
Jennifer Sutton: I'm like, I'm never going to do business in Florida.
Jennifer Sutton: But, you know, it was a big lessons learned for us.
Jennifer Sutton: We were in our third or fourth year in business.
Jennifer Sutton: It was like a, one of our largest, you know, accounts as a half million dollar project of, you know, with media.
Jennifer Sutton: And it was a, you know, we were doing TV spots and stuff and they kind of did their first series of payments and then they just stopped paying.
Jennifer Sutton: And then did the, we don't have to pay you.
Jennifer Sutton: you're too small, you won't take us to court."
Jennifer Sutton: And so we had an attorney that I called her and she's like, why did you do business?
Jennifer Sutton: You didn't vet them.
Jennifer Sutton: And I said, but I gave them our contract.
Jennifer Sutton: And she was like, but you were too loose on some of the terms.
Jennifer Sutton: And this should have been your red flag.
Jennifer Sutton: And I mean, so even just her counseling us of there are companies that prey on small businesses, especially in the creative field, that bank on you.
Jennifer Sutton: That you won't sue.
Jennifer Sutton: That you won't sue.
Jennifer Sutton: You won't take them to court.
Jennifer Sutton: You won't defend the contract.
Jennifer Sutton: But also, it was just kind of our lessons learned with her that she sat in court.
Jennifer Sutton: Like, I would have never thought I needed to be worried about being preyed upon.
Jennifer Sutton: Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: As a owner of a company.
Doug Lineberry: No business ever wants to think that.
Jennifer Sutton: That they were like, you know, just would have never thought that.
Jennifer Sutton: Or, hey, we got the contract signed.
Jennifer Sutton: Like, I would have never thought they signed the contract.
Jennifer Sutton: They agree.
Jennifer Oladipo : They agree.
Jennifer Sutton: And then they just say, you know, and I just, I didn't even
Jennifer Sutton: think about but you know she kind of went through and coached us you know our our team to go this is why you don't these are things that you are um you don't compromise that's right on these milestones these things and when they do then you hold back like the fight like you've got to have your protection you do
Jennifer Sutton: You have some but it was but that was yeah, we were fourth year in the business and we were literally getting coached but it was our because we had a great attorney and yeah, she kind of made me nervous because she's you know, she was yelling at me of like I
Doug Lineberry: If there's an attorney to tell you they've never yelled at a client, they're lying.
Jennifer Sutton: You might get yelled at, but it's tough love.
Doug Lineberry: But JJ, that message stopped because here you are four years later going, hey, or after you're four saying, hey, this is what I've learned.
Jennifer Sutton: And you're like, this stopped.
Jennifer Sutton: Oh, it stopped.
Doug Lineberry: But it's all just like vetting your attorney.
Doug Lineberry: Vet your clients.
Doug Lineberry: There's absolutely nothing wrong with going out there and doing a search and saying, hey, what about these guys?
Doug Lineberry: All of a sudden, the news articles pop up.
Doug Lineberry: Oh, a fraud lawsuit.
Doug Lineberry: Oh, blah, blah, blah.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: Maybe that's not who you want in business.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: You know?
Doug Lineberry: So yeah, doing a little homework both ways counts.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Jennifer Oladipo : Oh, we should talk about that next time.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yeah.
Jennifer Oladipo : Man, we're out of time, unfortunately.
Jennifer Oladipo : Somebody get another one also.
Jennifer Oladipo : That's like, cha-cha.
Jennifer Oladipo : Okay, this is awesome.
Jennifer Oladipo : So two things, just what are some, just like a last bit of advice and offense, defense, whatever.
Doug Lineberry: Don't panic.
Doug Lineberry: When you get this, hey, there's awesome ways to handle it.
Doug Lineberry: Drink of water.
Doug Lineberry: That's right, a drink of water and a little calm.
Doug Lineberry: Do not respond back in anger.
Doug Lineberry: Church language only.
Doug Lineberry: Church language.
Doug Lineberry: Y'all laugh.
Doug Lineberry: I literally tell folks when they're enforcing their march or they're calling out, I want to hear church language.
Doug Lineberry: And y'all, I have a mouth like a rabid sailor, so I understand the hypocrisy.
Doug Lineberry: But I don't want to hear my clients mimicking me on a call to someone else.
Doug Lineberry: That's right.
Doug Lineberry: But as far as an offensive one, don't be afraid.
Doug Lineberry: Guess what?
Doug Lineberry: It is your mark.
Doug Lineberry: It is your blood, sweat, and tears.
Doug Lineberry: They're making that brand awesome.
Doug Lineberry: You do not want someone to damage it simply because you were too lazy or too naive to go out and take a little action.
Doug Lineberry: Or too nice.
Doug Lineberry: Or too nice.
Doug Lineberry: Yeah.
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Jennifer Oladipo : Nice.
Jennifer Oladipo : So the advice is just be nice.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yes.
Jennifer Oladipo : Or don't be so nice.
Jennifer Oladipo : Well, no one not to be nice.
Jennifer Oladipo : There you go.
Jennifer Oladipo : There you go.
Jennifer Oladipo : There you go.
Jennifer Oladipo : So, Byrne Foreman, where do we find you?
Doug Lineberry: Anywhere.
Doug Lineberry: There's 400 of us.
Doug Lineberry: Absolutely.
Doug Lineberry: Byrne Foreman.
Doug Lineberry: We're actually a Southeastern firm, about 350 of us now.
Doug Lineberry: We stretch from, I'm trying to think I can get this right.
Doug Lineberry: I'm going to offend somebody because I'll forget.
Doug Lineberry: We stretch from Mobile all the way up to Delaware now and just keep adding to it.
Doug Lineberry: But we are really a Southeastern firm.
Doug Lineberry: Downtown Greenville, 104 South Main Street.
Doug Lineberry: Again, you can Google, you can find us.
Doug Lineberry: And it's B-U-R-R-E.
Doug Lineberry: I call it cockle burr.
Doug Lineberry: That's exactly it.
Doug Lineberry: B-U-R-R.
Doug Lineberry: Informant.
Doug Lineberry: F-O-R-M-A-N.
Doug Lineberry: Not the boxer, though, so don't get me wrong.
Doug Lineberry: But, you know, anywhere and again, same concept.
Doug Lineberry: Vet your attorneys.
Doug Lineberry: Check them out.
Doug Lineberry: You know, you can look us up online.
Doug Lineberry: You can go to our website, performant.com, and find out what we do to see if it's a good fit.
Doug Lineberry: But I advise everybody watching this podcast, do that.
Doug Lineberry: You know, check your attorneys out because it is a close relationship.
Jennifer Oladipo : Yep.
Jennifer Oladipo : Awesome.
Jennifer Oladipo : Well, thank you so much.
Jennifer Oladipo : This has been great.
Jennifer Oladipo : And where do people find us?
Jennifer Sutton: So you can find our podcast anywhere at your favorite podcast platform, or come to OrangeWIP.
Jennifer Sutton: That's orangewip.com.
Jennifer Sutton: And there's a Hello Chaos page and you can either choose to listen or watch.
Jennifer Sutton: The entertaining.
Jennifer Sutton: We're beautiful.
Jennifer Sutton: All right.
Jennifer Sutton: Thanks, world.
Jennifer Sutton: Thank you.