This week on Hello Chaos, host Jennifer Sutton welcomes Ebony Sullivan, COO of Cassy Electric, for a special episode. Ebony shares her inspiring founder journey and entrepreneurial insights, particularly on taking over a second-generation business and scaling it successfully. Tune in for real, raw, and unbiased founder stories every Sunday on Hello Chaos, brought to you by OrangeWIP, a multimedia company supporting founders and entrepreneurs in affiliate cities.
In this episode, Ebony Sullivan and Jennifer Sutton dive deep into the challenges and frustrations we face as female business owners, particularly in dealing with gender and racial biases in the business community. We discuss the often-overlooked struggles of women and minority-owned businesses, despite their significant contributions to the economy.
Ebony transformed her family's electrical contractor business, Cassy Electric, from a solopreneur venture into a thriving company within three years. Her leadership has been pivotal in scaling the business and expanding its reach. Taking over from her mother, Ebony navigated the complexities of transitioning a second-generation business. She skillfully managed family dynamics and overcame numerous challenges to steer the company toward growth and stability.
A certified, licensed, and master electrician, Ebony brings exceptional skills and experience to the table. She excels in handling complex projects and leading a team of professionals, demonstrating her capability as a business leader.
Ebony is an active member of the local business community and participates in various industry organizations. Her involvement underscores her commitment to fostering relationships and contributing to the industry's growth. She emphasizes the importance of being resourceful, financially savvy, and persistent in business. She believes these qualities are crucial for overcoming obstacles and achieving success.
As an advocate for diversity and inclusivity, Ebony highlights the unique challenges faced by women and minority-owned businesses. She champions a more inclusive industry environment.
Ebony Sullivan's story embodies the values of empowerment, equality, and progress. Her achievements and leadership in the business world inspire others to embrace challenges and strive for excellence. Through her efforts, she continues to pave the way for a more inclusive and dynamic industry landscape.
Jennifer Sutton: Alrighty, welcome to Hello Chaos, a weekly podcast exploring the messy and chaotic minds and lives of founders, entrepreneurs, and innovators. Every week we talk to founders from different industries at different company stages, all shapes and sizes, and we do hear the real, the raw, and the unbiased founder stories. It's why our mantra is where aha meets oh shit. We drop new episodes every Sunday so founders can tune in to us. And listen in on insights and strategies tips not just for growing a business but ways to be better owners better leaders integrated in the community. More HelloCast is one of the many resources brought to you by OrangeWIP. That is orange whip w IP for work in progress orange whip is a multimedia company dedicated to serving founders and entrepreneurs and affiliate cities. We've designed hyper local media platforms to inform inspire and create connections to help founders and entrepreneurs succeed. Our innovative digital zines are an all-in-one content hub with fresh and engaging stories, curated local calendars, and local dynamic roadmaps to help founders navigate their local entrepreneurial ecosystems. We've done the hard work for founders so they just need to go to one trusted place in their local market to find all the information they need. My name is Jennifer Sutton. My friends and family call me JJ. I'm the founder of OrangeWIP and your host today. And this is going to be an unusual episode. I am very excited to have Ebony Sullivan, who is the COO of Cassy Electric. Now, Ebony was on our, on our show on Episode 44. So if you want to hear about her founder journey and and how in her entrepreneurial journey, she's got a great story, especially on anyone that has to take over second generation and scale an existing business. And that's what she's done. She took over her mom's electrical contractor business, who kind of treated us like most tradesmen. It was very a solopreneur. And what was going to happen when when Ebony's mom, Miss Cassie, was going to, you know, ready to retire? There was no next generation. So Ebony took over the business and has literally, I mean, what, what, what three X. Yeah. And in three years, I mean, you were on a rapid, you know, um, uh, you know, scaling, but you know, you're, you're, you're pretty much running it. I mean, it's, I know you're COO, but you're really, uh, And you know, we talked about, so if you want to hear some stories around that, that's episode 44. I mean, Ebony and, and we talk about it of like, you know, her husband, her, her family works for her. I mean, she's got to deal with mom privilege, um, and transitioning mom to, to what's next. Um, and you've got to deal with husband privilege, dealing with your husband that works for you. And we share that in common, and those are some challenges that we all face. And so that is, that is some, some realness. And, and I think, and I don't know if we don't, like, you and I have talked offline a lot about, especially that subject of like dealing with family, dealing with, with those, those entitlement, privilege kind of tone. But it's like, at the end of the day, we got to run the business. And we, and we're trying to grow it. And we need everybody kind of making sure that that respect for that role and that pressure that we feel to be there. But this is a conversation because you and I, I guess we're super involved in our community and not just our direct local kind of economy, but we deal with the state economy we're dealing with. you know, national, on a national scale within our, within our industry segments. And, you know, we're, we've been, we're like, we need to bring this on air, some of the things that are in our heads, that we ask ourselves, and we know it's not just you and I, asking ourselves these questions. We talk about it in more smaller groups with other female leaders, female business owners, as a black-owned business and black female doing business. I'm a white female, white-owned, and women-owned business, but we share a lot of commonalities, and we're frustrated. That's a nice way. That's a nice way to put it. And especially in, in the dialogue and the discussions that, that is happening on a, on a national scale, how is that impacting us? As, as how do, how are we showing up in our business? How are we being seen in the business community with these layers of conversations that are going on? that are gender bias, and there's racial bias, and happening. And it's, you know, people are like, well, that doesn't really apply to business. Like, oh, yes, it does. So, you know, you and I come from, you know, we're active in the chamber, and our chamber organizations, local, state, regional, and we hear you hear this a lot, you know, and very involved in economic development, right? organizations, we hear the quote, rising tide lifts all boats. The JFK quote, you know, suggests that investing in economic development can benefit everyone who participates in the economy. And so a lot of folks, you know, when they talk about the economic development or, you know, is it economic mobility, I think one of the phrases we hear is economic inclusion is, you know, we've seen that transition, that conversation. What does that mean? Like, I know what it means. Yeah, I know what it's supposed to mean. I know what it's supposed to mean.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah. I think that's the thing. It's like, you know, to keep it on a high note and stay positive, we know that the intentions of these terms are positive, right? Like they're meant to be a positive, inclusive outcomes. But by the time they trickle down into real time, that's not exactly what's happening. You know, that's not the narrative. Of course, the narrative is always inclusivity, and it's to include everyone. But I like this saying. I actually said it to my son the other day. It's like, you know, you kiss me on the lips, then slap me in the face, right? So it's like you are telling me that you love me, and you want all these great things for us, but then your actions don't align with that. And that's how I see this inclusivity, this whole economic rebirth of how do we make sure everybody is being lifted up in that. It sounds good, and I'm sure the intentionality behind that is positive. However, the execution of that is not what's really happening with boots on the ground. Everything that we say that is related to inclusivity is now a dirty word. You know, we thought that was a positive to be a woman because, hey, we need support. We thought it was positive to be a minority Black person in here doing business. Yeah, we need that support. But essentially, nobody really respects that.
Jennifer Sutton: Right. You know, and it's supposed to be the intent is for economic mobility, generational wealth. Yeah. Um, and, and, you know, when you look at the rising tide lifts all boats, you know, there was another, I think Warren Buffett said, but when the tide goes out, you, you see who's naked. Yep. Who's left naked in the storm? And it really exposes who isn't stable, secure, and, and it is, the majority of that is minority and women, but the disadvantaged communities, right. And so, you know, part of the, you know, economic development strategies that you see in almost every community, not just ours. This is not a, you know, our local conversation. This is a national, but every market is how do we build a more stable local economy? And it's, you know, how do we create economic mobility for everyone? That's the American dream, right? that everybody should have an opportunity to not just, you know, get a job, but it's like growing that job.
Ebony Sullivan: Advancement.
Jennifer Sutton: Advancement, no matter what that is. But you're, you know, you want to make sure that you set yourselves up for your next generation. Long-term success. Correct. And I think that's where we feel, I mean, I grew up in the, you know, in the when I entered, I would say the workforce, because I think you and I are around the same age. You know, I was always like the token female on the team. Like I was the first manager, director, whatever. And it was like, All right, you know, that was kind of the joke. Oh, I'm the, I'm the token female. And I know you have felt that of like, The double. You're the token, token.
Ebony Sullivan: You can check two boxes. Yeah. In so many environments, you know, I've been the only one, the only female, Black female, the only African American, period, on some teams that I've worked with. And, you know, That should be felt as if it's a privilege, but it's actually a burden. It's a lot of pressure on an individual to be the only one. It should not be that there's only one of us here representing a whole group of people. That's just… That's just not the way that I believe that it's intended to be. Because on that individual who has to carry that burden, you do carry the weight of the world. You carry, like, I've got to make sure I dot all my I's and cross all my T's, that I leave no room for error, because I might be the last one, right? Like, I can't be the last one. I got to set the limits for all the others to come.
Jennifer Sutton: or just like you know we as females we have to to work extra hard we have to be like our stuff has to be almost perfect or you get the um to you lose that trust almost immediately right or or you can't even build it like you're not even able to to get into the room and leave the room in a positive way.
Ebony Sullivan: I mean, you had to even be on a standard of vulnerability as a woman, right? To even be seen. I almost have to be the damsel in distress for them to even really see us clearly. Like, I need your help. Not that you should want to just help me. Don't get me wrong. There's some really great people out here who do it. you know, but they're the anomaly, right? The majority is more or less like, yeah, you're the afterthought instead of that being the other way around, you know? So there's so many times where you just feel all this pressure already, right, to show up as a woman. But then you add the second layer of if I'm not being the dancing distress and being this extremely vulnerable, let me bare my soul to you person. Hey, help. You know, it's almost like help me, please. Right. If I'm not that, you know, like they don't respect it.
Jennifer Sutton: Maybe that's maybe that's my problem, because I've never done that. I get the Somebody had posted something on, I don't know, one of the social media platforms who were like, who, give some examples of, and it was, you know, in a female circle of like, who, what are some of the comments that you've received as a woman that is a backhand or whatever that's there to dim your light, you know, and you just see hundreds, thousands of comments of the, um, you're too bright. You're too smart. Um, yeah. So you must be fully yourself. Like you're bossy. You're bossy. You're too assertive. You're too aggressive. Um, you know, I was, I was like, you know, you really, you're going to love this. So someone, uh, in my experience, the, some of the quotes that I have received, I would say the comments that I've received from men who are trying to give me a compliment, right? And they're like, you just need to focus on being a CEO and just be in your business. But you need to find probably a man to run your business.
Ebony Sullivan: Because they're smarter than us. Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: yeah yeah but I was like what what do you think if i'm a female ceo in that what my you just need to stay in like behind the business yeah yeah yeah don't be forward facing. How about that? That was a good one. We just heard one today from a couple of female founders who are going into pitching, you know, funding. And they went into pitch in a room with male investors, a room of male, and their, their feedback was, was, and Taylor, if I get this wrong, you need to if I misheard it, but they were, you know, very inspiring, like their presentation was more inspiring, had all the data. Like, they had their shit, right? They had their shit buttoned up. So they had a plan, an actual action plan with data, and very inspiring. So they kind of told their why. And so, but their feedback was, you guys brought too much feminine energy. and an actual action plan. So when you come back to pitch, just leave out all of that and just show us the numbers. Because all the other men that you were pitching against, just show numbers. And the male investors in the room were too caught off guard by all the feminine energy. That's a thing? Feminine energy is a thing? I guess. Even though they connected with the why, like their story.
Ebony Sullivan: If it's about the business, not my feminine energy, I'm confused.
Jennifer Sutton: So that was a, so that, but we've heard that. I mean, I've heard that from female founders of like, I go into a room to pitch and I can see here, I've got a, a concept that is, you know, very much for, um, like women and like, uh, you know, a women's cocktail or you know something that's like a low uh alcohol level or if like or female shoes like concepts and they're like I walk in a room and it's investors of 30 you know 50 plus year olds and they can't even relate at all and so and so I don't get the funding um yeah that sounds about right yeah so you know it's interesting I've got some I've got some stats because you know That's who I am. I'm my love for data. So here's the thing. Women and minority owned businesses are growing rapidly in numbers. We make up actually well over half of all businesses in the US, right? Yes. But specifically for women owned businesses, only 2%. So we're talking about like 60% of businesses are owned by minority women and minority businesses. That's like several trillion dollars. Yes. That we participate in the local, you know, in the in the national economy. But only two percent of women owned businesses break one million in revenue. Mm hmm. Yes. So we always celebrate when we hear, you know, women who are scaling and they're like, you know, I broke, I just broke a million.
Ebony Sullivan: That was my goal.
Jennifer Sutton: And we're like, you need to celebrate that. Like you're one of the 2%. We need to grow that to 3%. But that number has stayed stagnant. for five, seven years, we haven't seen that number go from 2% to 4%. I mean, it's just stayed really flat. And it's because we're growing the pool, but we're not breaking that that 1 million mark. And all the studies, so McKinsey, and you know, all these others that, you know, come up, come in, or like, why, like, what is happening? Why is this? Because that, again, affects the local economy, mobility, inclusivity programs, and it's in studies. So there's a lot of gender biases of people, women get overlooked for doing business. Lack of resources or lack of knowledge of resources, which we know that from I mean, it's why orange whip is in existence literally because People think there's one or two resources in their local community and there's usually like 60 70 or 80 larger the market It's like, you know good at Austin. There's four or five hundred I mean, there's so many resources that people aren't aware of. And then lack of funding, lack of capital. I mean, however you get it, whether it's you're going for investment route VC or just traditional, like you need to go get a loan. It's still a capital, you know, and it's the lack of confidence for women to go and try to figure out the intimidation of figuring out the investment
Ebony Sullivan: um world and how do you navigate that but then also how do you you know how do you go talk to a bank yeah yeah and that's intimidating really really interesting facts i mean jp morgan chase we were just a part of um actually um a study through b piece which is a incubator program that we were a part of And I just posted something on LinkedIn about a month or so ago where they, BPs, followed up with an article to JP Morgan Chase and pointed out and highlighted our company as a minority woman-owned company that has broken through that $1 million mark. And we are successfully growing our business. to be a part of the 2%, but every quarter or so they send out a study or a survey asking, what are the challenges of our business? And every single time, year after year, our same response is funding. How do you grow a business without financial support? I talk about it all the time where people, We don't have a dear Aunt Sally to write a check. So this free money that you use to be able to seed your business, it doesn't exist. Yes, there's grants out here, but when you're a million dollar business and somebody is offering you a $5,000 grant, That doesn't even make my payroll every week. Right. You know, like, where's the real access to capital to help a million dollar business scale so that I can go back? Right. And back and help the next person. I can't even successfully help the next person because I'm still looking for funding myself. I'm still trying to navigate the uncharted waters on my own. And I have access to resources. Right. That's right. Imagine the people that don't.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right and you know for our listeners that you know the BPs talk about that because I know why you went to that because you were like okay I went to several banks to look for a loan and you were like the SBA requirements were every bank had a different process, different requirements and I've heard that from several business owners especially you know female but they're like I don't it's very difficult to navigate. Yes it is. And unless you come from the like the financial industry, you don't even know what questions to ask. I mean, it's the same thing of like marketing. People don't know what questions to ask. So then they hire wrong.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: And, you know, and I think the financial industry is very much the same, but there's no consistency like SBA nationally needs to make the same. Like, I don't care if you're this bank or this bank or this bank, it should be the same. And so I know that was like a journey you had to go through. And you were like, and then that's why you got, went to Be Peace, because they helped you figure out how to go in and how to get your money, how to pitch for your money.
Ebony Sullivan: the money, how to tell my story, how to pitch for money. And even with that, we needed help. I mean, even with having the help through the Be Peace program, which in turn connected me with a finance individual who was a volunteer, they called them a Um, he helped me to create the narrative, how to create the, the slideshow presentation and, and pretty much showed me what the bank needed to hear and, and what I needed to be talking about in order to get there. But with that, with all of that, I still needed allies. I still needed a male to co-sign for me and not necessarily co-sign on the dotted line, but call a friend. to say, you need to help her, right? You need to listen to her pitch and you need to help her. Had it not been for that, we would not have, even with the best presentation, been able to get what we needed in order to scale and grow our business during that time. And now we are in the same place. We've grown beyond what we have and we need more capital to continue to take on larger scale projects, to be in the mix. And even with that, it's still the same. We've proven ourselves that we repay our debt, that we are growing. Our books show that. But if you don't have a working understanding overall in accounting, that's a whole language in itself. If you don't understand that, you can't even start to talk about financing. let alone how you're going to be able to communicate with bankers or investors about your business. So it's such a huge, huge piece of your business that people don't fully understand.
Jennifer Sutton: And that's where some of the benefits of these like accelerators and these, you know, the 10,000 small business that Goldman Sachs puts on. I mean, They go deep dive the financial, I call them the segments, the modules, because it is vital. It is the language of business. Language.
Ebony Sullivan: If you don't understand that, you're just out here solopreneuring it. That's right.
Jennifer Sutton: Well, and I think that impacts, you know, more minority and women in business that, that if you as like the just the white male counterpart, they don't have to go as in depth, because all that stuff is just, you know, you almost have walked in with minimum information. Yeah. Yeah. So versus the script that we have to have is we have to do a pitch. We have to have all the right data, like the hoops that we have to go to go through is just so vastly different. When I talk to male founders and male business owners, and then I talk to people in our, you know, women business owners and women founders and, and you know minority businesses who it is it is not the same no it isn't that not the same process at all and the fact that that's not even it's not even a acknowledged and i'm like that is It's crazy how, yeah, I was like, we have to normalize that of like, we got to elevate this because we shouldn't have to be accounts. I should just be able to pitch the bit and like, give you my projections. I should give you the numbers that you expect from the white male counterpart. And And especially around female founders, too, of, there are so many studies. And here's what's also baffling, the fact that we have to go over these, like, so many hoops. Because over the last, like, 30 years, we have been studied as we've grown like 40. So just to give you a sense just out of the all the U.S. companies you know minority is it's when you add on minority owned businesses on top of that we're well over you know 50 percent it's like 60 I don't know between 60 and 70 percent right. Female ownership, female founded is 49 percent, 49 percent. Yep. Women owned businesses. But they deliver impressive financial returns. So they typically, and this is what's like again, so many studies, they generate twice as much revenue per dollar invested, which underscores the resourcefulness and the financial acumen that again, we have to go through. When you look at like, do I give money to this business versus this business? It has been like proven investing in female led businesses outperform male counterparts like well over. So BCG, MassChallenge, McKinsey, they have all found that women led businesses generate 35% higher returns on investment than men led businesses. and female led businesses also tend to have a higher revenue and create more jobs and put more money back into the local community, both in job creation, but also in philanthropic philanthropic efforts. So we give back to the community, like 10 to one,
Ebony Sullivan: I'm wriggling, Jen, because I love you so much. Your stats are just so spot on. And I can never, ever do the due diligence of regurgitating percentages and stats. But I can tell you this that I know for 100% certain. I just said this to one of my girlfriends yesterday. I walk around with a hot glue gun, right? We are the most resourceful. We know how to hot glue something together, piece it together, figure out how to duct tape it, make it work, stretch, and go the extra mile with little to no resources. There are so many times that my accountant says to me, I don't know how you're doing this. There are times I genuinely don't know. We are figuring it out. And those stats are proof of that. However, when you go, And you try to pitch your business to say, look, I know that this is what this looks like, but here's where we're headed. And this is how we're going to get there. And I just need somebody to support me and back us through this, to believe in us enough to take the risk. you don't get the same reaction. So to feel it is one thing, but your support of that and your statistics is just spot on because that's exactly how it is.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right. And here's what the crazy thing is. So when you look at, um, You know, I'm just looking at Funding as in venture capitalists, right? I mean you're The fact that people are like we'll go traditional funding. Well, that's still a challenge now you go VC You know that that so you had 19 I think was like a year or two ago It was like 19 out of the hundred twenty four unicorns that went public Mm-hmm that were all you know part of the VC, you know world. Mm-hmm were female co founded, or at least either female founded or female co founded 19 of the but they are generating that like three to 110 to 130 to one. and aren't exiting and going poof. Oh, yeah, you know, we can't, we have to, we have to, we have to make it work.
Ebony Sullivan: We have to make it work. I don't know what else what we do. You know, I think about that even with us. This has been such a hard year economically, right? Like even the scale to grow, to even maintain. Everybody has had to be very creative in how to manage this normal, unusual, unprecedented year. However, we don't have any other option but to keep going. We'll figure it out. We can't just say, poof, and I'll start a new thing next month. We don't have that option. We have to figure out how to make it work.
Jennifer Sutton: because you know here's some other fun stats you'll love this to you know champion on you know so female founded so last year female founded startups received two percent of all VC dollars so billion dollar multiple billions of dollars in the U.S. is in, you know, VC, 2% went to female founded 2%. So then when you look at like, we're in South Carolina, right? You know, out of that, that 100%, you know, pie that's out there, it only goes to like, what, the 80, 80 or 90% goes to four states for like, was it New York, Connecticut, California, Texas, I think that's like 90%. So you got other cities and or states fighting for the other 10% right. So it's like why you know you would think that the data would would show look the getting a female lead who was when they come into pitch They're coming in with so much more preparedness. They're actually also, they're not just coming in with a post-it note. They've actually been working on their business for three, sometimes 10 years before they go seek. So it's already further along than most of the male counterparts pitching, but they're being overlooked even though all the studies show it's a wiser investment. Yes. So why is our investment? You're going to get your money back. Yes.
Ebony Sullivan: And some. And some. And she's going to look up somebody else because we're philanthropic and we're going to figure that out. It's going to help the community. The data is there.
Jennifer Sutton: The data is all there. And it's going down. So that 2%, it used to be 4% in 2018. Wow, it was 2% last year, and this year is projected to be less than 2%. I could believe that. And because we're feeling it. I mean, just like just doing business, not just go seeking funding. We're saying that we're being overlooked, just in normal, every day. Yeah.
Ebony Sullivan: What was that recent conversation we were talking about? I called a friend and just straight up was like, hey, what's up? What's going on? And I'm saying friend, and I use that word with all good intentions because I would have, and I still do consider this person to be of friends to me. We were having a candid, honest, open conversation about what's going on, how's work, how things going in your industry. We're in the same construction industry. And hey, what's new? Why haven't we seen any opportunities to come down? What do we need to do? And we are a certified, minority-owned, woman-owned business. And hey, what's happening? And he was there.
Jennifer Sutton: But you're also bonded, licensed, master electrician, like all the things.
Ebony Sullivan: I tell everybody, we got all the things going on. We're sitting on a bench. We're like, let us in the game, coach. We're ready, right? We're ready. And I downloaded with him in that conversation just how much growth we've had since our last conversation, which was just a year before then, right? So I can remember when I first came into our family business and had this conversation with him. And he asked me very good questions about like, what are you guys good at? What do you perform well in? What are those spaces? And I couldn't knowledgeably at that time really talk to him about it. And so we've grown tremendously since then. And to have this conversation with him in 2024, four years later into the business, even though we still keep in touch with each other periodically now we're talking specifically about like what are the opportunities and why haven't we seen any and he was just because we're friends very candid and honest with me and he just said I just don't think about it. like I just I just don't circle we're not in the circle in that circle so even though you know of me you know what we do and when the opportunities come up for electrical services we're not even thought about right and so I I fully feel the impact of those numbers declining. I fully feel the impact of how it is so challenging to be in an industry or be a woman in business in general when you're doing all the things that your counterparts are doing. And because just simply because not because you're not qualified, not because you don't have the credentials, not because you don't have the experience, but simply because You're not thought about. You don't even get the opportunities like in that. How do you fight against that? And that was my question to him. Well, how do I compete with that? Right. How do I even address not being thought about when I'm here? I'm present. I'm in the community. I'm I'm on social media. We're in your back door where we're local. We have all of the credentials in it. Then he expounded and said, and there's only two. big businesses here that that matters. Your minority status is not something that matters to anyone but these two industries. And so if we're not chasing work in those industries where minority status is a priority for those clients, we're not even thought about.
Jennifer Sutton: So that brings up a good point then. But you're, but you're still one of the best electricians. So, so isn't that what, you know, no, I talk about this, like, that's where I get frustrated, because I'm hearing the same crap on my, you know, in my industry of like um well I'm just gonna hire somebody and choose it because either like they're super cheap and it's like we can't compete on that because we know our value yes or it's um I'm more comfortable because they they look like me yeah that's it you know that you know you're you're not in that circle so and I'm like but don't you want to have the best
Ebony Sullivan: I would think. Competitiveness, all of the things, doesn't it make everything?
Jennifer Sutton: Don't you want the right thinking? I mean, I, that's like somebody declined, said, Look, we were so impressed by your agency. You delivered a holistic, strategic approach that showed how we can hit our financial goals in the timeframe that we want it. Mm-hmm, but we've chosen this other agency because they their gimmick looked like something that we should at least try out. Oh Okay, that's that's a new one and I was like really I can't make this shit up like this is crazy like mm-hmm
Ebony Sullivan: I mean, then we've gotten, we've gotten things like you, you, you had, we used your number to win the project, but then we sent it back out to rebid again. Okay. Now that you've won the project and we'll see if your numbers competitive. But you're like, well, wait, what?
Jennifer Sutton: So you use my number to win on your side. Shouldn't that be the order that should be brought in? Oh, you would think.
Ebony Sullivan: You would think. But we sent it back out to rebid. Now that we've won and acquired the job, we're going to rebid it out and see if you're still competitive. How do you even make this stuff up? How do they even come up with it? And it's very difficult.
Jennifer Sutton: And it's like they're saying it out loud.
Ebony Sullivan: Out loud. out very much out loud and in writing.
Jennifer Sutton: In writing, that's what I was like, I got the email and I was like, I forwarded it to one of our media teams. I was like, I can't make this up. He was like, wait a minute, we're not being selected because we provided the most comprehensive, holistic, strategic approach. Yeah. That's not enough. That's not enough.
Ebony Sullivan: That is not enough. And then I think, Jen, too, that what it really makes me think of, I was in therapy last week, this week, talking to my therapist about this, because what I don't think that people fully understand, especially to all of our women listeners, that brings up such a level of insecurity amongst women, because now we're dealing with this imposter syndrome. Am I enough? It's my number. Did I work hard enough? Did I do everything right? Did I dot on my I's and cross on my T's? Did I? Did I? Did I? Am I? Am I? Am I? And just to give all of us peace of mind, you are enough. We are enough. We are doing everything that we are supposed to. The data is validating that, right? The data is not lying to us. It is telling us that we are enough. We're doing it right. We have proven track records of success. It is nothing to do with us at this point. And so I don't know how we fix the mindset of people to be inclusive when that is supposed to be the narrative, right? Like that goes back to what we said from the very beginning opening of the show is that's why it's a kiss on the lips and a slap in the face. It's because you are encouraging me to do all the right things only to remind me that I was not even thinking about you.
Jennifer Sutton: Right. Well, and that reminds me of like, you know, we're getting hit by WeBank, which is our the, you know, the national organization that certifies women owned businesses. You know, we're getting hit by, you know, several chambers across the states. You know, this is our renewal time, you know, invest in the chambers. And, you know, we're getting we're getting hit by you need to be, you know, the women professional associate like we and now I'm going, what are you doing to help me? What are you doing to curb and, and get these conversations in the open that help benefit me? Like, like, you're having your organizations on my website, or being in your directories, or like we said, going to these diversity supplier, I mean, we're getting flooded with take off a day and go and Yeah, it's a free conference, this conference, this conference, this conference, okay, pay to this conference, you can mingle with all these network with all these companies that want to do business with you. I'm like, no, they don't. No, they don't. They don't want to do business with us. They will just want us to be filled their directory. Mm hmm. It's a checkbox because I don't see any output we've been a part of that you know we've been certified since 2018. I have gone to these national conferences, we had to spend, you know, hours, hours of like, after, you know, the follow up after the conference of putting ourselves in these 150 corporations that attended these, you know, the WeBank conferences or the WPOs or the, you know, or going to these, you know, BMW supplier conference, Koch supplier conference, Milliken supplier conference, Prisma, Floor, I mean, you name it, we're like, or the the city of Charleston or the city of Greenville or the city of Charlotte. And Lanza, I mean, we're going, you know, we've spent five going to all these conferences, and we come back, and it's like, I don't think they realize the amount of time of, okay, now we got to now we it just doesn't automatically get us in these in databases, no, no, you and they don't talk like in the state of South Carolina, there is a state registry, business directory, but none of the cities and municipalities tap into it. So they don't have their own Yeah, so there's 250 databases. I got us submit to just to deal with doing business Within the different regions of South Carolina the different organizations That's just on the government the public side. Yeah, but go into these conferences these we banks that gets us into you know, all these, you know 150 300 500 corporations that say, you know, we want to support the minority and women-owned businesses. And here's the directions, you know, they'll hold up and go, here, this is how you go in. This is the things that we need. This is, and we've done that. I mean, we spent hundreds of hours, hundreds of hours doing that. So we're in a thousand databases.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah. And you probably get overwhelmed with new opportunities flooding your inbox. I do, but they don't mean anything. No, I do not.
Jennifer Sutton: I'll tell you, I'll tell you only on the government site, like we'll get, do you want to bid on this website? But the RFP is so poorly written. Yeah. I mean, and then when I ask questions back, it's like, you don't even know what you like. You're looking at it from a price thing. We'll never win because we don't approach it that way. Or you want a brand and it's like you want what a real brand is, but you just really want a logo. We don't do that. because you're going to just be disappointed and just having a mark.
Ebony Sullivan: We get them. We get probably every day 10 to 15 requests to bids in our inboxes daily. And of those, I would say we've not made not one connection. It is the randomest things that happen for us where we are able to make connections with someone. They're not even in our local area. They're not even in our state. These are people who have just, they just want to get the job done and they're looking for a good electrician, right? And that's how we, it had nothing to do with my minority status. It has nothing to do with me being local and a friend and we served in the same communities or we sit on a board together or I'm in a database. It's been none of those things.
Jennifer Sutton: It has been us fishing and nurturing who we want to go work with. But you're right, like we get on the public side, like all the, you know, we do get, I just ignore them because I can literally open up one of those RFPs and go, they, and marketing, I mean, it's a terrible industry for us. We are not treated with respect. You know, to submit, you need to do free work, you know, send us spec work. send us a send us a media plan, send us your recommendation, send us creative, how would you approach this? So literally, for those type of RFPs, it is 50 hours, 100 hours, that's, you know, that's 15 $25,000 per RFP proposal that we have to, and it's like it never works out. And that's a saying in our industry of, unless you've helped write that marketing RFP, don't respond to it because somebody did. They're already working with somebody, and they just have to go through the exercise.
Ebony Sullivan: And that's not just in marketing, Jen. I mean, just to let you know that it is across the board in all industries. It's the same way. We have gotten blueprints that were so So bad that we were like, what exactly do you want? What are you asking of the electrician? And we found out quickly that it was not even about that. They just had to post it. The job was already given awarding. A body. And they just haven't made that public knowledge just yet. But they take you through a song and dance. And while we may not spend tens of thousands of dollars on bids, you're talking about blueprints that we need to print. We're spending hours taking off and counting. All of this, I'm having to cover the cost of for a possibility, opportunity that just generally has not shown us any results.
Jennifer Sutton: 98, 99% won't ever come to for it. And, and that's what it's like. So we're also in these, all these pub, these private, you know, corporate or public corporations in their supplier directories. I can tell you, I, we have, I mean, we're in several hundred portals.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: We have never received an RFP. Wow. Not one in five years, not one. So, you know, when you go to the supplier company, you know, and, and I've had other business owners and, and, you know, in the females who are getting now scaling up and they're like, I've been encouraged by our. our local leaders to go and attend these, that it's really important for me to be seen. Do I really need to take off? I'm it. I would need to take off to go network, and what do I get out of it? And I'm so jaded. I'm like, yeah. Unless you have some person that you know is going to be there, or people that you need to do your homework and see who's going to be there, There's no reason, because you can literally go into the portal and register yourself. Because the corporations even, you know, and that's kind of what we put pressure on. WeBank, the women certification association, we were like, where's the outcome? Like we asked Companies like the Home Depot and Universal Studios and Sony like in the entertainment space But you know, these are coca-cola and Pepsi and I'm trying to like these ginormous companies and we're you know down to like midsize, you know company We're like, are you even looking for marketing? Are you looking to truly truly diversify your spend? Like don't tell me you're trying to diversify your supplier directory. I need to know Are you trying to go from? Temporary are you even monitored like right now you're because there's no I think there's no accountability There's no accountability, but also there's no I think there's a myth out there that there's some Requirement by a government body And there's not affirmative action is no longer. I mean, like, like that, that from a from a, you know, Supreme Court ruling, and it was only around universities, like, how do we get less discrimination in college acceptance?
Ebony Sullivan: And
Jennifer Sutton: Yeah, it's fine. That's what it was. That's how it started out. They overturned it, you know, so that's no longer If corporations kind of picked up on it, I mean from the corporations that had put affirmative action in place there was no, you know, it became a negative of like, oh, I'm gonna lose my job or I All it did from a corporation and again stud there are ton of studies people so go and do your homework But there's there's no all studies that have shown Any company that truly put affirmative action programs in place. It just helped them diversify their hiring pool that before they just, it got more people for them to look at, but it didn't necessarily equate to somebody's going to, I'm going to overlook a a minority candidate, I'm going to choose a minority candidate over a white because I'm required to. There is no studies. I mean, and about there were there were several cases that were put forth, but it was that there was no merit founded, where people were like, I lost my job because you hired a black person over me.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, because if you dig deeper into affirmative action, you'll also study that you'll also find that affirmative action was more most beneficial to white women than any minority. I mean, you know, really, that was to help open up the door for white women to be able to actually compete and be be eligible to compete in a space where it was predominantly white men. And so in terms of affirmative action, being connected to some form of diversification of a candidate pool, it really did nothing for minority Black women or men. It's been used. It's been weaponized to make people believe that that is a part of a tactic for Blacks to take away jobs and opportunities from others. It's a scare tactic. But the reality of it is we have not benefited from that as the majority.
Jennifer Sutton: And as we talk, you know, that was another term was like, when did affirmative act I mean, it's, it's a bad term like it is a dirty word. Now, and it and you're right it has been weaponized. But, but I don't think you know people use it as oh it's a, this is a race based program. And it wasn't. It's a blanket term for a variety of programs that aimed at reducing discrimination in education, reducing discrimination in employment, and in government contracting, and doing business with others. And I think it has turned to weaponize and focus on race, even though gender representation, that it should be used to go help us with with gender equality, right? Which I'm going to talk about another dirty word that has and I don't get it. But you know, gender equality should be a positive thing. Racial equality should be a positive thing. And those are weaponized terms. And you're right, studies have shown that white women benefited the most from affirmative action programs, specifically higher education, because that's what affirmative action kind of was intended to be. But women surpassed men in earning four-year degrees while Black and Latino students are still vastly underrepresented. Exactly. But it's the race-based affirmative action that draws the loud, you know, the most controversy. And here's the thing, even though white women benefited, white women are the loudest. And that's why I told you, I'm like, I've had some conversation. Yeah. Yeah. But I get in heated discussions.
Ebony Sullivan: Oh, I'm sure.
Jennifer Sutton: I mean, that's just the same with DEI. And I don't and I'm like, I don't get it, guys. And usually it leads to like the DEI. Why is that a bad word? I mean, we're hearing that on the national theater of our, you know, Kamala Harris is a DEI hire, and it's like, that shouldn't even, but we're hearing that, like that started happening. We, you know, the noise of annual reports and strategic plans are coming out from corporations who were like, yeah, don't use DEI. Don't use the word, it's a trigger word. And I'm like, but, McKenzie did a huge study that showed companies with robust DEI programs. that weren't just check-in-the-box, that actually used diversity supplier directories, that actually diversified their vendor pool, created more inclusive internal programs, had healthier cultures, were actually better off financially, and were showing their revenues were growing at a more rapid pace with higher margins and a happier, more satisfied employee staffing. So if that is all, when did that become a bad thing?
Ebony Sullivan: Great question. I don't know if we ever find the answer. Why is that bad? You got all the data. I don't get it. It's not about data. That's the thing. And it's probably never going to make sense to us because we know that there are people out here operating out of their feelings, not out of fact-based study, not out of this is the right thing to do. Yeah, there are some really great people out here who get it. And that's why their companies are thriving and growing, and they're successful. And then there are companies out there who don't. And the ones who don't, they will eventually become very stagnant. Because as you can tell, the population, there's people that are dying off. You've got to make new friends. Or what else? And if you don't consider people outside of your own circle as part of your new circle, then you will eventually fade off and have stagnation in your business because you're not being inclusive. And inclusivity is not just about race. It's about economic development. We've talked about that before. But if you are viewing it from a position of race, then you're viewing people as competition, not as allies, not as an extension of you, not as somebody that's helping you to also lift up in areas that maybe you would have never been exposed to, or it's just closed-mindedness. And I don't know how to compete in a closed-minded market, nor do you know how to mitigate areas of topics or discussions when the facts say what they say, but you still decide to go against that.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right. And I think it's very fear-based of, you know, it's like when you think of Affirmative Action and Inclusivity, DEI. You know, our friend Nika, I think, always described it so eloquently of what's the difference between diversity and inclusivity. And it was diversity gets you in the door, gets you a seat at the dance, right? Yeah. But most of, like, whether you're, you're a woman or you're, you know, Black or brown, most of us sit on the outskirts of that, of that party. We, you know, a lot of people go, Oh, yeah, but you, you have a seat at the table. And it's like, I'm not even in the boardroom yet. Like, I love the analogy of the dance. Like, I got, I got a ticket to be invited to somebody's party. But I'm in that party, and I see all the circle. The people that I want to be a part of is in the circle, and I'm hugging the wall.
Ebony Sullivan: And nobody from that circle comes away and says, hey, you're new here. Come join our circle. Let me show you how it works.
Jennifer Sutton: But that's what an inclusivity program, like that's what inclusivity means. It's like, I see you, I see you, let me grab, come here, let's dance.
Ebony Sullivan: Now you're a part. One and only, you know, and that's the side that we talked about earlier as well. So they grabbed my hand, you know, they're going to lift me up. And now I have the pressure of the entire minority woman owned business on my shoulder because I'm the only one in that circle. Right. I've got the pressure to have to be successful because, hey, if I screw it up, I'm screwing it up for every minority that's behind me. Every minority that's behind me, they'll never get another opportunity. If I screw it up, could you imagine the pressure, right? The pressure on that one and only token person. And so that's why inclusivity is equally even more important is that there's multiple of us at this table that we have allies and people who understand that same pressure that we're under. And we're in this together. And then we're going to make sure we lift you up because we understand that your success is our success, right? That is what inclusivity is about.
Jennifer Sutton: Any lasting thoughts, Ebony? Did we cover all of our, like, I know we, we could go on for a long time.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, we got a lot of things covered in this conversation.
Jennifer Sutton: We talked a lot about, uh, dirty words and, uh, and such. Um, where can people reach you to connect and do business with you?
Ebony Sullivan: Yes. Well, I'm all over social media, Ebony Sullivan. I am the real Ebony Sullivan. So, um, there's some others out there. We love them too. I'm Ebony Sullivan. I'm with Cassy Electric. We are CassieElectric.com. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. Our company has social media. Cassie Electric is everywhere. We do residential and commercial electrical contracting. Would love the opportunity to work with any of our listeners. And I am reached at 864-735-8882. That's our direct number to get in contact. You're putting in your phone number. Oh, call me, baby. You might get Bianca instead of Ebony, but you know, it's the right company. That's right.
Jennifer Sutton: Well, this was fantastic. I think we're going to split this up. We'll split it up in a couple episodes. But yeah, we're going to do it after you. Thanks for hanging out, Ebony. Thank you for inviting me. This was a good combo. I know you love my data.
Ebony Sullivan: Yes, I love your day-to-day. It just, it just, it just validates the feelings that we're all feeling. Like you're just saying, Yes, girl, that's right. You're feeling it.
Jennifer Sutton: And this is why. And there's a lot of others that are feeling it too.
Ebony Sullivan: You're not alone.
Jennifer Sutton: We're in this together. Let's build the ecosystem, girl. We can do it. Let's do it. All right. For everyone listening or watching us live, thank you for joining us. This podcast episode will be published this coming Sunday. Actually, the next two Sundays, because we're going to break this up into two episodes. Because this was fantastic, and I don't want to lose anything. So subscribe to Hello Chaos, like and comment. You could do us a huge favor just by doing that. Help us grow and build a more connected entrepreneurial community. Hello Chaos is one of the many resources brought to you by OrangeWIP. That is OrangeWIP, W-I-P for work in progress. We are a multimedia company dedicated to serving founders and entrepreneurs in affiliate cities. Just your email to join the community, one stop content hub just for founders in an innovative digital zine experience. We are in three cities in South Carolina, Greenville, Columbia, and Charleston with goals to expand in more cities over the next five years. And yeah, every community needs an orange whip, because we do all the hard work for the ecosystem, and literally is the connective tissue of that of that market. If you'd like to be a guest on our podcast or support us, send us an email to hello at orange whip.com. Thank you for tuning in to Hello Chaos. It is where aha meets oh shit. I'm your host, Jennifer Sutton, JJ, and we'll see you again next week.