Exploring the intersections of DEI and feminism, this episode delves into the importance of solidarity among women of all backgrounds. The Jennifer and Ebony continue their discussion on subjects like systemic oppression in both racism and patriarchy, highlighting the need for empathy and connection across different forms of discrimination. From workplace barriers to societal expectations, they challenge the lack of understanding and empathy that can hinder progress toward true equality. The conversation prompts reflection on how society values and categorizes women based on motherhood and professional success, raising thought-provoking questions about privilege and recognition.
DEI and Feminism:
Economic Inclusivity:
Challenges in the Business World:
Historical Context and Data Bias:
Actionable Steps:
This episode is a call to action for women and allies to come together, support each other, and build a more inclusive and equitable business ecosystem. We emphasize the importance of merit-based recognition and the need for systemic change to truly achieve equality.
Connect with Ebony Sullivan and Cassy Electric for residential and commercial electrical contracting services.
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Jennifer Sutton: Welcome to Hello Chaos, a weekly podcast exploring the messy and chaotic minds and lives of founders, entrepreneurs, and innovators. And we are back with part two with Ebony Sullivan, founder of, or excuse me, COO of Cassy Electric. I call her a founder because she's taken over her mom's trade electrical contracting business and has put her family to work and has tripled the growth of that company. But Ebony and I, had a conversation around words and some of the landscape of how do we desensitize conversations around DEI and affirmative action and inclusivity and feminism. And so we're gonna check out and continue our conversation with Ebony on this subject.
Jennifer Sutton: And, and, you know, it's like, I know we said it's, DEI is a bad word and it kind of leads us into the other dirty word of feminism. Oh boy. Because here's the thing, we talk about, you know, DEI, affirmative action. I mean, again, these were help break these barriers, right? Let's avoid the discrimination, these biases that we have. But there should have been a sense of solidarity among white and black, you know, black and brown women, like just as females, because we, you know, and I think I think the reason why there is a breakdown of white women that are shouting the loudest against that, it's like this lack of empathy of our black and brown women, other female founders, they are bringing, you're being oppressed because of systemic institutionalized racism. But women are oppressed because of the patriarchy.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: I mean, we're just and I think that's where it's that lack of connection of it's it's also systemic. Being in a patriarchal society, just like it is, you know, oppression for systemic racism. Still oppression. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, however you look at it, it's like, why isn't there that connection, that empathy to go, you know what, you can't climb, you're hitting some kind of a ceiling, whether that might be in the workplace, it could be in your own, you know, family. And we're again, we're hearing these, these absurd discussions and statements on a, you know, in a national theater of, you know, if you don't have children, you're less than.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, I heard that. I just want to know, do I get extra credit for four? Do I get more?
Jennifer Sutton: I mean, do we get more because we have some? Or do I get double because I'm also a business owner and a mom of four? Do I get extra credit?
Ebony Sullivan: We get no credit, actually. We fall all in the same bucket, unfortunately. And that's what I think if we all can understand that is that We are all in this fight together, whether your fight is patriarchy or it's systematic racism. We're fighting against the same big bad wolf. And we're all on the same team. And if we can find the commonalities of the fight, that's what inclusivity is about, right? Is that, yes, I can be different. I'm an electrician. You're a marketing executive. But we have one thing in common. We're both business owners. If we can put all the other things aside when it comes to that, we're all being oppressed, right? This is no longer about Yes, some are worse. When we start talking about equity and equality, yes, there are some that have it worse than others. But at the end of the day, we are all in the same fight, the same fight.
Jennifer Sutton: Rising tides lifts all boats. I mean, that's what I don't understand. It's like, you know, you're taught to be a good leader, to be a good business owner. You're only as strong as your weakest link, right? So I even put that in the sense of our community, our economy. You're only as strong as your, so again, when the tide goes out, when times are bad and you see who's left naked and vulnerable, That's where, you know, and I know a lot of the chambers, organizations, they have accelerators and incubators and, and, and all of these programs to help. But my fear is they're still, you know, they're helping us, you know, gain access to knowledge, to resources. But we've got to protect those programs, right? We got to protect, and it's got to be real, like, Don't just go, you can't just go through the motions of, OK, here's the knowledge. OK, send us your stats. And good luck. But there's got to be that follow-up and follow-through of, at the end of the day, If you want to see these businesses succeed, if when the boat or the tide goes out and you see your disadvantaged communities laying there, you know, more vulnerable, more naked, that is the kink in your chain, right, to the economy. So how, you know, versus I think what we do as a community or an economic community, we focus on the 1% unicorns. Mm hmm. And because there's only about 1% in a market, it's a small drivers that high drivers results, but that's not going to stabilize. No, your economy, 60% of your economy is through is small business is small. It's the smaller businesses, but do that incremental. That's economic inclusivity, inclusive, that's economic mobility. Yes, it's to help the next generation and you know, I'm just you know with the the word You know, I was like talking somebody I'm like, I'm a feminist and they were like, oh I mean, I literally saw their butt clench when I said it Different times now Jen some different times you got to be careful about the vocabulary word I was like, my mom was a feminist. I'm I come from a very long line of strong assertive theme, but I'm like, I don't get it. And they're like, no, that means you want to be better. And I said, it is about equality. It doesn't mean I am overshining. I just want, I want a fair shake.
Ebony Sullivan: It's all about fear, Jen. People operating from a position of fear. So they fear what they don't know. They fear what they don't understand. And so, They don't understand strong women who are going to go get what they need and what they want. They're providers for their family. They work alongside their husbands, not behind their husbands. That's right. That we are teammates. We're partners in this together. That is a very foreign thought for some people. They believe that there's women that should be at home taking care of their families and that we shouldn't be doing the things that we're doing. We're in a very male-dominated industry in construction. We are the only women-owned minority electrical contractor in the state. in the entire state of South Carolina. Not that there are not other women-owned electrical contractors out there, but we're the only minority, you know, electrical contractor. So again, it is, when you start using words like feminist and equality and things like that, I mean, that takes people back to civil rights and they start getting squirmy, right? Like, you Martin Luther King's daughter, like, hold up. We don't want to talk about that.
Jennifer Sutton: I want to take the word back. It's just a person who is saying, give me my right according to my merit. Don't see me as a man or a woman. And it was created because there were no rights for women. I mean, that's where the work at like it people were literally fighting for the right to basically make a choice of what to do. So, you know, it's about equality, which I don't understand why that's even a bad word.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, because it goes back again to accountability, right? Then people have to acknowledge where they are first. When I teach my course, we talk about the GPS and where are you now and where are you going? Well, in order to get to a space of equality and equity and inclusivity and and feminine rights, like all those things you have to acknowledge where we are. These things are important because today these things are non-existent, right? Because of where we've come from. So history plays a huge part in acknowledgement of how we got to where we are today. If we don't acknowledge that from the beginning there were laws and things established that excluded people, right? Women, people of color, you know, just of all the things, they were genuinely excluded. And we're here today. Like, you were not even a thought when we were writing this constitution, right? You were not even a part of that. The people who wrote this did not consider their wives to be hardworking women. They were not considering Black people to be a part of the ecosystem other than to crop and to be slaves. They did not write it with the intention of us being a part of it.
Jennifer Sutton: Right. And, you know, you talk about like as as we've evolved, I mean, that's where you get the bills. That's why those amendments are happening. And we need to protect those. And we have to protect them. Because it's taken our Constitution that didn't have that language, but we've recognized that as a, as a America, as a brand, I kind of relate it to like a brand, you know, we, we look at evolution of brands and this is a, you know, America is an old institution and a brand. As it evolves, you've got to make sure that you are inclusive to everybody within that umbrella. Yes, yes, yes. And so we can't roll back.
Ebony Sullivan: I mean, I mean, wasn't that what the Revolutionary War was about from the beginning? I mean, you wanted to break away from the old guard to create your own inclusive. Right. But then you went back to citing, you went back to doing the very thing that you wanted to break away from Britton for, from, right. So you wind up transforming into the very person, very entity, very much the brand that you wanted to break away from. And so if we don't acknowledge that, if we don't acknowledge that we are not who we were when you did these things, and we don't start talking about, how we can be inclusive of all the people that were left out from the beginning. Then what are we talking about? We're still doing the same thing, expecting a different result.
Jennifer Sutton: And I fear we're rolling things back. Like we are, the conversations that are happening are frightening. You know, and especially when people don't realize, you know, women like you and I, we couldn't even get our own credit card. Yeah. without your husband was like, you have a bank account without you couldn't even have your that's right you without your or a male cosigner I think it was like 1988 women could get a loan without having a male cosign.
Ebony Sullivan: That's just so very recent. Correct.
Jennifer Sutton: I was like, I was a junior in high school when that happened. So I, you know, I was like, oh my God, that's crazy. It was like 1995. five or four, it was women could get their own credit cards without having either a parent, like if you were young, but to have a husband, a man cosign. So we could get a loan out before we could even get a credit card.
Ebony Sullivan: That's crazy.
Jennifer Sutton: And you know, that's recent. Like to me, that's, you know, that's very recent. But, and you brought up a good point of like, you know, when you went and got your, your loan, it only happened because you had, you had somebody, I'll call a sponsor in the community that said, we need to, you need to do business with her. You need to help her. You need to help her. And that's where it's like, when we talk about whether it's feminism, or inclusivity, economic mobility, again, it's all about rising tides, having equality, whether you're a man or a woman, right? So that means we need to have men in this conversation. So we need men to stand up for their moms, their sisters, their girlfriends, their wives, their daughters, and say, I'm going to change the game for my future generation for my, you know, my kids, or my grandkids, or, you know, my, my sphere of family, my sphere of influence, my sphere of influence.
Ebony Sullivan: I mean, I've got a really great mentor, and I love to shout him out, Chris Moore. He's with Carolina Power. And all of that makes me think of him because there are doors that were open only because of him. They would not have ever considered to either give us credit to even look at us, to even consider us as a real business, even though we had everything, all the I's dotted and T's crossed. Had he not said, here, I want her to be in this conversation or invited me in the room and made sure that not only was I invited to the dance, but he brought me to the circle, right? If it wasn't for that, it doesn't matter how prepared we were. It didn't matter if we had all of the credentials. And like I said, it was the first day of school with your backpack on and your new outfit. It didn't matter if we did not have this man to sponsor us, to say, I stand behind her and with her so that people would do business with us. So again, it's like, what good is your credit score? What good is all these other things? Sure, they qualify you.
Jennifer Sutton: They're just, but you're not, you got to have somebody to take your hand and get you off the wall and bring you in the center. And that, you know, that's a good point. You know, I think, you know, when I look at like our early successes, because we did, we had key, um, men influencers who believed in, you know, believed in, in, in bright and, um, and me. And I mean, like one of the senior executives at I heart national. I mean, there is no way. You know, we were doing big media buys and I'm like, oh, we couldn't get a home like a home equity, but we couldn't get a line of credit because we were we weren't in business yet. Three years, you know, all the stuff. But it was like, I you know, we got it. We're going to we got to float. We need to spread cash flow because we're doing you know, we're buying a million dollars of media that I'm not going to get paid for my clients for, you know, 90 days. So I need a spread. And who was going to, what media company is going to allow me buy at that level and not want to have cash up front? Yes. So I had somebody that came in, he was like, we're going to give you credit. Yep. and and did the same thing and allowed us to be able to serve our first like three to five clients when we were in business before we had hit our three-year mark and we wouldn't have been able to scale and there were there were I've got about three or four examples of that of like they you know Sponsored us to get us in to be a vendor at one of you know a fortune 100 company Sponsored us in purchasing and said no we she needs to be a part of it She hasn't met the requirements yet, but we're gonna endorse her.
Ebony Sullivan: Yes, so we need men a part of the conversation absolutely People think that fit when you say feminist they think that you're excluding men and that's not that's not all what now it's equality We just want to be you know
Jennifer Sutton: whether you're a man or a woman, you want to be seen for your merit. Yes. And have equal opportunity. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I was like, so I don't know if you've had, here's a book that's fascinating. It is called, invisible women. It's a so, so data, right? You know, I'm a nerd. Data is fundamental, right? Yeah, economic development, to health care, to education, public policy, we rely on a lot of numbers and data to allocate resources, figure out product of like, how do we develop these products? How do we create new medicines and innovations to serve? Like, I mean, manufacturing, I mean, that, whatever, innovations, it helps you make crucial decisions, right? I mean, right. That's what we, we stand on and, and, uh, and marketing is we let data inform our decisions, but so much data. This book is just fascinating to me. If you're, if you're into. um the saying it just it just amplifies the world we live in that's that is um we live in a patriarchy I mean it just amplifies this because the data that they go into in this book that these studies you know they just go deep dive that um a lot of data fails to take into account gender because it treats men as the default and women as the atypical So there's so much bias and discrimination are baked, are baked into our systems. So you know, it examines like home, workplace, public, you know, the public squares, your doctor's office, how medicines, how products are developed from our shoes to our clothes. I mean, it is fascinating. And it has unearthed, this book is under a dangerous pattern in data and how the consequences, how it's impacted women's lives. I mean, it is a fascinating, like, you know, product designers use a one size fits all approach from everything to pianos, to cell phones, to voice recognition software, how we design cars, how we design, um, I mean, even like I think one of our friends in our minority business community, you know, she's trying to help in the construction market, have clothing that fits women that are, you know, safety equipment. And it's because everything is designed to fit women to fit men. So you've got like major safety issues, just in, that's just one sector, medicines. I mean, ineffectiveness in women's health care, how we drive, like how we are, our cars are built, they're designed for men. So when we get in a car accident, like the airbags, everything is designed for men. So yeah, that's like, the medical research is like the biggest, like, data fail in terms of like gender bias. Because, you know, that's where I mean, you're like the perimenopause menopause, like, but also just women's health care up top. What's the practice? I can't say that word. But just how we are treated for a lot of different women's health is why we're a lot of, you know, there's a lot of misunderstanding. There's a lot of mistreatment, misdiagnosis. And, and, and I mean, just shows that
Ebony Sullivan: even deeper, Jen, like if you dig deeper into that, while all of those things are absolutely true, if you dig deeper into the data, all of those things impact black men and women.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right. That's right. Oh, believe me, they're Yeah, and I can't remember, I'm gonna have to, I'll tag it in this in the episode, but I'll find it and you might know the book. Because I have, you know, in before I started bright, I did a lot of research for different hospitals, healthcare systems, research, cancer centers, where just to uncover like issues in the community. And it was interesting of, you know, to get inside the black community, to get feedback, there was a lot of fear. And I went and did a whole bunch of research to understand like the history of that. And there's a great book that uncovers, cause it's the, what is it? Yeah, that and then Johns Hopkins was basically going into the African American, the Black community and getting people to come in for and taking their stem cells. And we're using it and is that, is that.
Ebony Sullivan: And we had a lock.
Jennifer Sutton: Henrietta a lot. Thank you. Yeah, so that's a great book for anybody if you just want to like really understand that goes through minute affected generations, but just the, the, the fear that the black community has around. health care professionals. So, you know, we had to design unique ways to just gather information. I mean, I was going into barbershops, and I was going into churches, and I was going into, and to uncover, like, where it's like, I don't go there. Nope, I don't go there. And I was like, Why do we need to have a hospital right? Nope. It's like the fear of the white jacket.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, it has not worked in our community. Look at COVID. Most recently, look at COVID and look at our community and look who was impacted throughout our community as it relates to the disparity of access, just the clean hospitals and clean water and clean facilities. And just then you introduce a new vaccine and who's the first to be experimented on? then we find out later on just genetically what the impacts are, you know, to our lineage. So it's scary. That's right. And it's heartbreaking.
Jennifer Sutton: Because that was developed with not just the race, but also the gender. Exactly.
Ebony Sullivan: We would not take that into consideration, you know. That is the underlying tone, is that across the board from the beginning of time, there was a group of people who decided that these are the only people who were a part of matter of this system, this ecosystem that mattered, and they did not include women and people of color. And so because of that, you see the long-term residual effects of it. And if we don't start open, candidly having conversations about how we need to start from the beginning, things need to be readdressed. We can't stop talking about it because it makes people uncomfortable. It is intended to be uncomfortable.
Jennifer Sutton: It needs to be uncomfortable of like what is because when you boil it down This is where I've had those conversations with with my circle when I hear in In a circle of white men and they are you know, they hear affirmative action. They're like, oh, yeah, I was like Why would we lose jobs over them? Did you know didn't like no, there's no no stat that shows no if you were qualified to Yeah, you know all it did was a fear based of oh There's just more competition for the first time.
Ebony Sullivan: I mean our president just said it he says, you know immigration is taking black jobs, but what a black job jobs What are black jobs? We want to know where they are so we can go apply for just those jobs that have been set aside just for black people like where are they?
Jennifer Sutton: Well, you know, Kamala just turned Black, so.
Ebony Sullivan: You know, she's all of that, all of that fear.
Jennifer Sutton: Listeners, I am totally sarcastic.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, I know. I totally know. But, you know, it's just, again, it goes back to the lack of knowledge and people intentionally putting their head in the sand and not wanting to talk about the uncomfortable things, the things that really matter. And when we talk about economics and equity and mobility and all those things, we have to start at the beginning, not in the middle and not keep selling us your dream about what it's going to look like down the line. But let's talk about how we can fix it.
Jennifer Sutton: Let's let's start grabbing people off the wall and bringing them to the party to bring him to the dance She knows how to two-step to that's right, that's right So, okay, so You and I, we, we've got full of ideas. What, so what should we do? Like, you know, that's why I'm like, I'm getting ready to pick up the phone and call, you know, have a conversation on WeBank to go, What should I renew? Tell me why I should why I should renew my membership? Why should I renew my certification? Because it costs money. It's time, money and energy and resources. So, you know, we're pretty we're pretty scrappy when we need to. So if I'm not getting business over here, I got to cut it somewhere over here. So that's, you know, I'm not going to cut my marketing because it's working.
Ebony Sullivan: Right.
Jennifer Sutton: But what I'm going to it's going to work because I just I'll just fish and, you know, start fishing in another pond. But I can eliminate my expenditures to go, where can I spend that money elsewhere? And, and if I'm not seeing any activity under, you know, I mean, I love being a part of the chambers. I love the, the connections, the camaraderie, but I have to be honest and go, well, what am I getting out of it? Like, I feel like I volunteer more for their programs and services and help uplift those programs and services that I'm getting in return.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, I get that.
Jennifer Sutton: And maybe I shouldn't think that, but I'm like, you know.
Ebony Sullivan: So, you know, I sit on the board for the chamber, the Greenville Chamber of Commerce. And, you know, I'm a fierce advocate for commerce. I love business. I think that everything that is related to business in some facet has its its benefits. And then at the end of the day, each individual person has to make a determination of what's good for them and their business and what isn't. When I think about my commitment to some of these organizations, including WeBank, in this specific economic hard time, we've trimmed the fat. So we've looked at our return on the investment, And if it takes me more to, like, not only am I a member, but now I have to spend more money to be engaged on all the different events and conferences. And I'm not seeing one contract, one return. Like, I know how to build relationships. I don't need to be a member of something to do that. We could use LinkedIn at this point, find out who the purchasing agents are at some of these corporations and make connections with them. And we can do the old-fashioned back-to-cold calling and trying to get past the gatekeepers, because I personally have not seen the fruit of the labor that we've put into some of the organizations that we've been members of. And they're great for some businesses. Yes, they are. But for our need, even like ABC Carolina, I think they are a great organization. It is for American Builders Association, and there are people in there who are big contractors and subcontractors, and for their business, yes, it makes sense. When you start talking about small business, under 5 million, under 10 million, you start talking about those guys, and you're talking about breaking in, again, to a whole another circle. So the first circle that you had to penetrate is to be able to afford to even join. Now you finally can pay the membership. But once you break in, there's a whole nother level of engagement that you have to have money to play in the arena with them. And if you're a small business and you're just trying to grow your business, some of those places are just not conducive to growth because you're spending more than you're making just to make relationships.
Jennifer Sutton: And there's other, there's another pond that you can go and fish in, right?
Ebony Sullivan: And I'm just going to take my ball over here and play in this park for free, right? It may take me a little bit more time. It may give me, you know, it may make it a little bit, um, bumpier road to navigate, but at the end of the day, you know, I'm not paying to make friends, you know, and that's how a lot of these, um, programs are. It's, it's intended for you to pay for popularity, you know, and the more money you spend, the more access you get, the more connections you have. And if you don't have that money, you're trying to grow your business, then you're just in the room. You're not actually at the table or in the dance or anywhere. And you have to determine if that's- You're just in the building somewhere. That's it. And I don't want to be in the building. I would rather build my own building than to have to keep begging people to allow us in. So when you say, what do we do? I think we find the people who want to do business with us, and we do business with people who understand where we are and what we can do. and we don't have to do any kissing up or having any certifications and attachments to our name or pay to play. They just see that we give good quality work, we're good people to work with, we're paying attention to detail, we're flexible, we're reliable, we're dependable, we do things on time and budget safely. And when you see that, then you just do work with us for that reason, but all those- Based on your merit.
Jennifer Sutton: That's it, based on your merit.
Ebony Sullivan: That's all we want. Not a certification, because it's not, at this point, it has not benefited, in my personal opinion, to be with all these certifications.
Jennifer Sutton: Right. I mean, the intent was good. I mean, I think if these organizations that really say, you need to be certified, and it's like, I just want to elevate to go, then what are you doing to help give relevance? yes give give relevance to that um that label um and and give power to it but right now I feel like it is there is we've seen no no return but also it's it's almost uh um when I show it you know and I'm like hey if this is meaningful we are a we like if it's meaningful to your organization We're we are we bank certified and it's and it's interesting most of the people go now Doesn't matter everybody.
Ebony Sullivan: I have spoken to that is in the in the corporate sector. That is exactly their response Well, we have our own personal internal diversity goals, but for this particular project that is not something that matters to this client. So we're just looking for the best number. Right.
Jennifer Sutton: So until like these organizations, I think that's where, whether it's a chamber, whether it's the WeBank, you know, chambers working more of a local level. SBA is working at like a national level. WeBank's working at a national level. I think until they start elevating, again, those conversations to go, OK, companies, you know, or, you know, public and private sectors, if, if it's meaningful, show it, like, don't just have a diversity supplier conference, and don't do anything with it. Because you're wasting, you're actually hurting those businesses because they've got to take time, money and energy out of their business to go and participate in something that is just for your corporate newsletter to go, look what we did, pat us on the back because we have a DEI program that doesn't do anything for the community.
Ebony Sullivan: Oh, man, listen, Jen, that is everything right there. I mean, we've participated in so many minority business events for it to bear nothing from us. They want you to come and speak. They want you to show up. They want you to be a vendor. They want you to do all the things. But when it's time to advocate, When it is time for them to say, listen, my name's behind this certification, right? Like we bank should be saying our name is behind the certification. This needs to mean something when our constituents are members to this and put this label on their business.
Jennifer Sutton: It should mean something. Right. You know, and I, it's so funny that you say that. So last year I had a conversation with somebody over at WeBank, like our, I think regional chapter. And I said give me the numbers like are you guys monitoring? You have corporate members that are they are just being members of your organization to me just to kind of put it's a tick of a box That's it. That's it. I was like, but oh, they're like no. No, are you in the support or so? Are you in the portals? I was like, I'm in hundreds of portals. I've been to all of your you know your shows Followed up. I'm I'm in there. I've received a Not one RFP. Oh, well, you know, marketing is not really one that they they go after. And I said, well, I think you need to to then follow up to go. Well, did how many RFPs did they send out in marketing? And did they source the like? Was it was it a closed RFP as in they sent it to the five people that they want to do business with?
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: Because we're emailing that we're trying to nurture them. I mean, we've got, you know, ongoing communication, but it's like nothing.
Ebony Sullivan: It's like an empty hole. It's an empty hole. Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: And, and it's the same thing, you know, I'd said to, you know, we're, we're a part of all the, the chambers in the state. And I've said that to the state or and also the state commerce, and I'm on, you know, the U.S. associate commerce, and I'm like, because, but I'm like, what is it getting me? Like, we're spending a lot of money in memberships, and like you said, I don't want to pay for connections. There's no return, but I believe in it. I want to, I enjoy the friendships, but I've already made them.
Ebony Sullivan: We've already made them. Do I need to move on? There is some value in having your name associated with some things, and you'll find that. But outside of that, there's no true data to support being actively engaged in some of these organizations that are using minority status as its leading factor. Like it's just, it's not enough companies out there that it matters to. They don't have enough people in the database. And I'll even say this, cause this has been my experience. I think that the presidents, the leaders of a lot of these organizations are truly committed to having what they believe is a diverse and inclusive market of vendors and contractors to work with. I do think from my experience.
Jennifer Sutton: I agree with you on that. Yeah, I agree.
Ebony Sullivan: As it trickles down into the day-to-day operations of how these things are being actually executed on is where we find the murky water. Because while you're saying to your team, we want to be inclusive and diverse, you're not explaining to them that sometimes that comes with a higher number, right? Here's why they may come in and not be as low as so-and-so or such-and-such. And so if you're not giving context to the fact that this small marketing company, Bright& Co, is going to be higher because they've got a higher overhead, because they're a smaller organization, and you're comparing them to a larger firm like EP, of course you can't compete. We just can't compete. But you give the marching orders downstream to get the best number. Right. So at the end of the day, the deciding factor goes to the procurement manager who is only going by the marching orders of give me the best number. Not understanding that that is not always the case if I am going to be using a minority small business because we can't compete with a Walmart or we can't compete with an EP or I can't even compete with the Carolina power, right? We just don't have the same capabilities or access or resources in order to do that. Could I compete with another small electrical contractor? Absolutely all day, game ready, bring it on. But if we're not competing in the same pool of candidates, even though you sincerely want minority participation and inclusivity within your organization, if you're not attaching that with these understandings that in the fine print, you may have a higher number, but we're rising up a boat that needs to be brought into this pool of candidates here that we want to support. If this is not about that, then all of it is smoking mirrors.
Jennifer Sutton: And less naked bodies when the tide goes out.
Ebony Sullivan: That's it. That's what it has to be about.
Jennifer Sutton: It has to be about that. That's right. So, so ideas, what can we do? I mean, I know, like, we want to start a Women in Progress event series, like just, you know, let's start it here in the state. Get women together just to talk like, desensitize some of these conversations of, you know, let's talk about like, if you're hearing feminism is bad, why? Yeah. Why? If you're hearing affirmative action, one, those things aren't required anymore, so it's kind of dead. But if you hear it, is it bad? In a negative way, why? Let's talk about it. So you hear the different perspectives. Or, look, let's help each other out. We all are looking for business. I've said that to And some folks in the community, they're like, well, you know, Jennifer, we really, we love your business. What can we do for you? And this is, you know, some organizations. And I was like, you're here to support the business community. I need business.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, that's all we need. That's all we want and we need. I don't, I'm not like, I'm not looking to go to dinner every night with everybody. We want to make money, you know.
Jennifer Sutton: I was like, I need business. So it's like, do we bring, you know, these like women that really want to scale and grow, you know, and, and bring together and go, how can we help each other out? What are the issues that we're seeing? You know, is, are, are, are, are my, the gender biases I'm seeing, is it, is it just an anomaly? Like, am I doing something different?
Ebony Sullivan: I don't even think that I can learn from. Validation of what we already know is true. I mean, you've learned the facts. We know this is true. We know that what we're feeling and what we're experiencing and what we see is true. I think we've got to find, I'm high in execution. I'm like, what do we need to do? Yeah, we need to find a way to create venture capitalist groups, right? How can we fund our own women ventures? How can we find women that are ready to start banks and help with banking? We have to learn how to empower our own community and start building up our own infrastructure to be able to support us. And I'm not saying eliminate men or leave them out, because there are allies, there are sponsors. There are people out here who believe in what we're doing who have mother daughters and sisters who they are entrepreneurs as well and they want to support them and they have influence and we want those allies at our table that we're inviting them to to help us to be they have to be of the building infrastructure to support one another, do business with each other, right? Like be intentional about seeking out other women, minority businesses, and doing business with them. If nobody else should be intentional about that, we should be. Right? That's right. And we can't expect for other people to be intentional about something that we aren't even intentional about. So yes, I'm going to call Jen. Yeah, Jen's going to call Ebony. Yeah, we're going to intentionally go look for a small business that's woman owned that we can do business with. Not because we're feminists and we think that women are better than men, but because we have to support our ecosystem. Nobody else is going to do it if we don't. So we have to teach people how to treat us by developing our own systems that when we come into the room and we bring all of our feminine energy, the women that we're pitching to are like, yes, sister, bring it, because they understand that, right? So I think we've got to just rethink our approach instead of breaking into somebody else's building, build our own.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right, because that system exists. And we're not in that circle.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, let's get on.
Ebony Sullivan: I love it. Yes.
Jennifer Sutton: When are you going to do it?
Ebony Sullivan: When are you going to start? Let's start. Let's start building bridges, conversations, Women in Progress. We're talking about how do we start up all these infrastructure resources that we need to be able to support ourselves when we're not invited to their table. We make our own table.
Jennifer Sutton: That's right. All right, listeners. That's what we're going to do. Women in Progress. We're going to start it. We'll do it. All right. Any lasting thoughts, Ebony? Did we cover all of our, like, I know we, we could go on for a long time.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah, we got a lot of things covered in this conversation.
Jennifer Sutton: We talked a lot about dirty words and, and such. Where can people reach you to connect and do business with you?
Ebony Sullivan: Yes. Well, I'm all over social media, Ebony Sullivan. I am the real Ebony Sullivan. So there's some others out there, but we love them too. I'm Ebony Sullivan. I'm with Cassy Electric. We are CassieElectric.com. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. Our company has social media. Cassy Electric is everywhere. We do residential and commercial electrical contracting. Would love the opportunity to work with any of our listeners. And I am reached at 864-735-8882. That's our direct number to get in contact. You're putting in your phone number. Call me, baby. You might get Bianca instead of Ebony, but it's the right company. That's right.
Jennifer Sutton: Well, this was fantastic. I think we're going to split this up. We'll split it up in a couple episodes. But yeah, we're going to do it for you. Thanks for hanging out, Eboni. Thank you for inviting me. This was a good combo. I know you love my data.
Ebony Sullivan: Yes, I love your data. My nerd out. It just validates the feelings that we're all feeling, like you're just saying, yes, girl, that's right, you're feeling this. That's right. And this is why.
Jennifer Sutton: This is why. And there's a lot of others that are feeling it, too.
Ebony Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Sutton: You're not alone. We're in this together. Let's, let's build the ecosystem girl. We can do it. Let's do it. All right. Um, for everyone listening or watching us live, thank you for joining us. Um, this podcast episode will be published this coming Sunday, actually the next two Sundays, cause we're going to break this up into two episodes. Um, cause this was fantastic and I don't want to lose anything. So subscribe to Hello Chaos, like and comment. You could do us a huge favor just by doing that. Help us grow and build a more connected entrepreneurial community. Hello Chaos is one of the many resources brought to you by OrangeWIP. That is OrangeWIP, W-I-P for work in progress. We are a multimedia company dedicated to serving founders and entrepreneurs in affiliate cities. Just your email to join the community, one stop content hub just for founders in an innovative digital zine experience. We are in three cities in South Carolina, Greenville, Columbia, and Charleston with goals to expand in more cities over the next five years. And yeah, every community needs an orange whip, because we do all the hard work for the ecosystem, and literally is the connective tissue of that of that market. If you'd like to be a guest on our podcast or support us, send us an email to hello at orange whip.com. Thank you for tuning in to Hello Chaos. It is where aha meets oh shit. I'm your host, Jennifer Sutton, JJ, and we'll see you again next week.