In this episode of Hello Chaos, Jennifer "JJ" Sutton talks to Grace Gavin, co-founder of Know Honesty. Grace shares her journey from a chaotic childhood on a dairy farm to becoming a leader in promoting honesty and openness in the workplace. They discuss the real challenges of entrepreneurship, the importance of clear communication, and how finding joy in the process can drive success. Grace emphasizes the power of community support and continuous learning in navigating the ups and downs of leadership.
Key Takeaways
💬 The Power of Openness
Honesty isn’t just about speaking—it’s about listening, too. Grace shows us that creating a safe, judgment-free space fosters trust and collaboration. Leaders, openness starts with you.
✅ Clear Agreements = Stronger Teams
“Let’s agree to be honest.” Simple, but impactful. Grace reminds us that setting clear communication expectations upfront builds authenticity and better outcomes.
🔄 Failures Teach, Not Define
Grace’s lows became lessons. By seeing setbacks as learning opportunities, we build resilience and grow as leaders. Every failure is a step forward.
Timestamps
03:01 The Journey to Founding No Honesty
06:13 The Importance of Openness in Communication
09:12 Setting the Stage for Honest Conversations
12:10 Learning from Client Relationships
15:23 The Roller Coaster of Entrepreneurship
18:20 Creating a Culture of Support
21:04 Navigating Leadership Challenges
24:00 The Role of Questions in Team Dynamics
27:10 Conclusion and Key Takeaways
33:09 Navigating Post-COVID Workplace Dynamics
40:33 The Journey of Self-Discovery in Leadership
46:12 Challenging Myths of Entrepreneurship
52:37 Embracing Joy in the Entrepreneurial Journey
Connect with Grace:
Website: https://knowhonesty.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grace-gavin/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowhonesty/
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Hello Chaos, the weekly podcast that explores the messy and chaotic lives and minds of founders, entrepreneurs, and innovators. Every week we talk to founders across the spectrum. We hear the real, the raw, the unvarnished viewpoints of what it means to be a founder. So today I am very excited. We have Grace Gavin She is the co-founder of
Know Honesty and I joked around with like it's Kno, K-N-O-W, honesty. I love the play on words. Grace is a catalyst for open and honest communication and effective leadership. Welcome Grace, welcome to HelloCast.
Grace Gavin (00:44)
Thank you for having me. I am pumped to get into this conversation. Let's do it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (00:48)
Wow, me
too, me too. Well, why don't you just start us out? Levelset, tell us how did you start on this journey? How did you basically co-found Know Honesty?
Grace Gavin (00:58)
you know, the more that I think about that question, the more that I see through lines in my life of how I ended up being here. So I'll give you the like, very quick backstory. I am the last of eight kids, I grew up on a dairy farm. And growing up it was, to put it nicely, chaotic. Like there was a lot there was a lot going on in the household. That's right. Like I'm Hello Chaos right here. This is what we're talking about. And so I thought it was just like,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:12)
Whoa.
You're like chaos follows me.
Grace Gavin (01:28)
This is just how my family operates. This is how our business operates. And other people have got it figured out though, right? Like other people know what they're doing. This is just us. And then I got out into the professional world and my word, that was not the case. Everybody has got some type of chaos going on. So I ended up working at a daycare actually. And what's funny is that now that I teach communication to adults, it's...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:36)
Right.
That's right.
Grace Gavin (01:53)
really similar to teaching it to a three-year-old, to a two-year-old. It's the same thing, same principles. We just forget, or we need them taught in a different way. And so through that journey, I ended up meeting my now co-founder, Ken Bogard. And I started working with him as his executive assistant. And we were helping leadership teams implement EOS, which is the Entrepreneurial Operating System, proven system for running your business if you haven't heard of it. And what we really found through that was,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:53)
It's very similar.
Grace Gavin (02:20)
That there was a percentage of the teams that would implement and work very quickly to get success with EOS. But it was a rare percentage and most clients struggle. It was like, what's going on here? Why is this so difficult? And in looking at that, what we found was their ability to communicate, to be open and honest is what was either the catalyst for that or what stood in the way if they couldn't do it. And so looking at that was like, okay, we really need to.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:33)
Yeah.
Really?
Grace Gavin (02:47)
to help teams get this right and to get the communication at the foundational levels correct so that they can go out and achieve the really awesome, exciting things that they want to do for, whether that's improving the world or the business or whatever it looked like. You can't get there if you don't have good communication. And so a lot of it, I credit to working with Ken and saying yes to opportunities and being there because I'm always hungry for more growth and he's somebody in my life that I've been blessed to have.
pushes for that, who encourages and gives opportunities for that. So I'd be remiss to not mention Ken in my journey there and just always saying yes to things.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:25)
Yeah. So what's the what's the story behind Know Honesty?
Grace Gavin (03:31)
Hmm, yeah, it's, it's looking out and seeing just the lack of honesty that exists within workplaces. And really, workplaces is our focus, but really in the world, right? Is why, why is there this lack of honesty happening when we all know it's good, we all want it, right? Honesty is the best policy. But why is that not happening? And so just to be clear on what we mean by honesty, honesty is being truly and freely yourself speaking into what you want.
you feel. And that just doesn't happen. Not to the degree that really makes a difference and that helps us. Because when we can be honest with ourselves, with others, with our team around us, that's when we're getting to the real root of things. And so was looking at, all right, that's not happening. Why? If we all want it, why is it not happening? And what we found is that it's the other side of communication that we don't talk about nearly enough, that we don't acknowledge in any real way, that makes the difference of whether honesty
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:15)
Right.
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (04:29)
comes out from people and then if it makes a difference. And so that is openness and openness is I'm going to challenge listeners to think about it differently than what we define it as right now, because we think about openness as being an open book or transparent. That's all wrapped up in the honesty side of things. It's still about me, myself and I. But if we're in a team, if in relationships, that means there's somebody else on the other side. And that's where the openness comes in. So openness is listening without reservation, putting your needs and wants on pause for someone else.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:37)
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (04:59)
And we just don't talk about it like that. We don't think about it in those terms of the give and the take there. We just think about the honest side of the conversation, the me, myself, and I. And it's a huge miss that when we can bring openness into a team, when we can bring it in a real way into a relationship, that makes all the difference. Because I can be honest all I want with you, Jennifer, but if you're not really listening to what I have to say, if you're not open to it, I mean, does it really matter? Does it go anywhere? Not usually, no.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:03)
right.
Right, well it's one sided. I that's when they teach a lot of active listening and people are like, well of course I listen. It's like, no, no, are you really, are you walking through their shoes? Are you asking questions, clarifying questions to really kind of absorb what you're hearing? But also I love what you said about that openness because you're really, giving people space.
and the grace they need to feel comfortable, to feel like they belong in that moment. Right, is that, been working on a lot of that for myself.
Grace Gavin (06:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Right?
Because it's like, well, there's, and then we take it a step further and we have our six practices that make these simple, tangible and implementable, right? Because I give you the definitions, you're like, but that some people are like, that can be hard. How do I actually do that? And so we get deeper into that with the six practices, but it's one of them is the agreement and it's just simply stating out loud, Hey, can we agree on how we're going to communicate?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:18)
Right.
Grace Gavin (06:28)
I want you to be 100 % honest, I will be 100 % open and then vice versa, I'll be honest with you and I ask that you be completely open to it. And just that, that stage setting, that boundaries, those expectations around communication makes a huge difference because otherwise what are we walking into in a conversation? We don't really know, we don't really know the other person. so like at least for the rest of our conversation, I would hope that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:46)
Right.
Grace Gavin (06:54)
we have that going forward, Jennifer, that you're able to be honest, you're asking great questions, but also inputting with the knowledge that you have, and then I'm listening to it completely, and then vice versa. And we have that, and we're going to make a really great podcast episode together, but even just thinking about relationships going forward, what the difference that makes. If we can walk into that knowing, I can say what needs to be said, because we have this agreement in place that you are going to be open to what I have to say.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (07:22)
And if you're not, or if I'm not, it's a living breathing agreement. We can come back to that. And we just, don't think we're bold a lot of times in our communication to establish this is what I want. This is how I want this relationship to go.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:26)
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
That's it, know, I'm just taking it in a little bit, because we've struggled with turnover on the marketing agency side over the 10 year, 11 years we've been in business, and because we've struggled with like, how do we make it a comfortable environment? And I can tell, I'm like, I know I have failed a lot, like lessons learned of my leadership, my weaknesses, where, you know,
where I have barriers that I need to overcome and really kind of like make space and grace for people. But also make sure that people know what the roles are and how we need to serve our clients. But then I also go, whoo, it's really tough to have those kind of open, convert with clients, because we're there to serve. you know, we.
You kind of don't know what your place is a lot of times and there's things that you want to ask. We just want to be, and it's like, do we need to have, like you said, set the stage or create these rules maybe as part of our onboarding with clients to go, this is the environment that we want to have because we're just an extension of your team. Don't treat us like we're a vendor. Treat us like you would any...
employee down and we need to have that because sometimes they hold us at arm's length of and they're not honest with us they feel like either they're gonna they don't want to ask questions because I feel like they're good they it might be a stupid question and we're like there are no stupid questions or they're you know they're like I just I don't want to be but I don't want to bother them or I'm threatened by them or I need to I need to show that I'm more powerful so we get all these like
posturing and weird, I would call it weirdness happens. And then I have to go in and some that have like a one-on-one and go, let's just break it, like what's happening? What's happening here? But I'm going, maybe I should be doing that upfront as kind of level setting some of those conversations and building a better relationship with clients from the get-go. Versus trying to do it,
Grace Gavin (09:57)
Yeah, I mean.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:59)
demonstrating, hey, you can ask any question. I mean, we try to reinforce that with every like, ask questions. We don't know what you don't know. We don't know what you have angst about. Sometimes we might forget and assume things, but we try to demonstrate it over time. I'm now thinking, ooh, this might need to be part of our onboarding.
Grace Gavin (10:23)
Yeah, because it's calling out the reality of it, right? And sometimes we feel weird about acknowledging the reality of our situation, but by not doing that, it makes it more weird. And I, if you don't mind, I have the perfect story to exemplify this, because when we first started developing our assessment, which is another one of the six practices, we started with a company that we were in the beginning stages of developing the agreement, but we didn't have it locked down to the degree that we have. So we
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:26)
Right.
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (10:53)
didn't necessarily put the agreement in place. And this is a third party vendor. They're building this assessment for us, right? And so we don't really know what goes into web development as a team. We're not really even sure what questions to ask or what even that looks like. And so it ends up being, you know, as these projects do, it went months past what it was supposed to.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:07)
Right.
Grace Gavin (11:14)
We continued to ask for the invoice and then get the invoice. Finally got it back and it was multiples of what we had expected. I think three or three to five times a multiple if I'm remembering the numbers correctly. And it just was.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:23)
Right. Website can be the
biggest scope creep of a project there is.
Grace Gavin (11:28)
It was insane. And it was,
there was no openness, Know Honesty going back and forth where it was like, we kept asking them, is this the best thing? Like, what should we be doing? And I just didn't feel like they were fully bought into it. Right. And then, and then we find out towards the end, like they're not going to continue to support what they've created. That's not in their, their process. They build projects and then they're, they go off and it's like, well, we needed the maintenance and the help for it. And so then we had to go find.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:38)
Right.
Grace Gavin (11:55)
a different company and by this point the relationship was broken. wasn't great between all of the things that happened. It was frustrating.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:58)
Right, you've lost trust, it's like, yeah, the communication, the
clarity, wasn't, it was just unhealthy.
Grace Gavin (12:05)
Exactly. And so then we go find a different company and we settle on one and we immediately put the agreement into place. And it is amazing the difference that it has made to the point where like we brought them something and said, Hey, we know they're like, we didn't build this. And so it's going to be difficult to maintain it. And they're like, what they built for you is the equivalent of what like Netflix runs on. And we are not Netflix. We do not need that for the assessment that we have.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:32)
Right.
Grace Gavin (12:33)
And we said, we understand, we know it be better if it rebuilt. We're just not in that place yet. We just created this. We want to see if we can make it work in this investment. So they said, okay, well, here's what we can do. And here's going to be the drawbacks. It was like, thank goodness you told us these things. And then we got to the point where like, we are ready to do 2.0 of this version. We got together in a meeting. was myself, Ken, a couple other of our team members and a couple of their team members. We're talking through what it is that we want. And one of the people that
We had had some interaction with this person on the team, but it hadn't been our main point of contact where he jumped in and I said, here's what we want to do. And he jumped in and he said, Hey, understand why you want to do that. Here's why it's not going to work. And here's actually what I think is going to work better. And that was like, from the, from their perspective, amazing. And that can feel really scary if we're a vendor to a client of like, I don't want to say this because I don't want to make them mad and they don't work with us anymore. But to me as the client, I'm like, my word. Thank you.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:04)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Gavin (13:31)
Like this is why we bring you in for your expertise. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not naive enough to think I know everything. Like if you're talking from a marketing perspective, I know that there's so many things that I don't know. And so I appreciated him jumping in and say, Hey, we've got this agreement in place. I need to be honest. This is, I know what you're trying to achieve here and that's not what's going to work. And here's what I actually see being better because he knew that I would be open to it. And I wouldn't just get stuck and say, Nope, this is the way it has to be. I'm the client. You have to do what I want. We actually had that relationship back and forth.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:34)
That's right. We don't know. Right.
Right.
Right.
Which is, yeah.
Grace Gavin (14:01)
where it ended up saving us money, saved them a headache,
made the project so much better, we're still working with them months later. And it's because of that example there and having the agreement in place that made the huge difference. what I'm saying to you is that absolutely put that out there because it just clarifies things.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:07)
That's right.
Yeah, because
you're right. mean, we kind of do the here's how we work. Like we will tell you, we will give you what you want, but we're going to tell you if there's another way. But the fact that you as the client were open and willing to accept because we find there's not that's that is also sometimes rare to find somebody or a company that
wants to hear the advice. Like we work with clients today that are, like that's, we wouldn't recommend that direction. It's gonna be, you know, more time, more money. We can do what you ask, we will do it. You know, we are here to serve, but there's a better way. It's not always received. I've been at it for 30 years and I'm gonna tell you, like, so I appreciate and just, you know.
to the masses out there, whoever's listening, you will say, like you've hired somebody, there's a reason you hired them. Like give them that space, let them be open and listen and respect that knowledge.
Grace Gavin (15:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely. think it's, I mean, it's part of why we're talking here today. But I think the reason that that happens is just because there's not the education out there. And that's why we exist today is because we're not thinking about communication in these terms and relationships in these terms. But when we do start to do it, that's when it really makes a big difference. So that's why I do the work I do.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (15:36)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It's the, so
I know, and I'm, so you guys are coming in almost as a layer, like icing on a cake to somebody that is on the EOS, EOS operating system, because as a client, we sit in on a lot of, what are they, the weekly meetings, the leadership meetings, what is it, the 11s, the L10s, I was like, I know how to,
Grace Gavin (16:19)
the L10s, yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:21)
And we've got team members that sit on those and I can tell you from our, know, we're still, we report in, we kind of do our duty, but we see so much chaos in those circles because people are posturing, there's not open and honest. A lot of people aren't being respected for their roles and their expertise and you just see
Like I said, it's just this working, it's just, it keeps going chaos. They're all kind of following the operating system and they're going through the motions, it's the emotional part, it's the people part that we see kind of spinning a lot. And so I love that you guys come in and make that, like I said, that icing. It's like you guys are putting in that layer to go now.
Grace Gavin (17:11)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:21)
How are you gelling as a team?
Grace Gavin (17:23)
Yeah, I would say I appreciate the icing because everybody loves the icing part of a cake. And I think EOS on its own, I just want to be clear, is a great system, but we come in and help to utilize it more. And so I would even say it goes far to say, I'm not a great baker. So somebody out there is going to be like, that's not how you make a cake. But I would say we're the egg of it, right? The thing that holds it together to make it work.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:28)
Yeah
Yeah.
The binder. You're the
flower and the egg combined. There you go.
Grace Gavin (17:49)
There we go, there we go. Cause you can implement
the system and you will get results, absolutely. But you will get way better results if you have a team that can be open and honest. There's a reason you have an issues list to utilize. And I see so many of my clients when I first start working with them, I say, all right, how well are you utilizing your issues list? And we work with clients outside of EOS too. Absolutely. Yeah, so it's not.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:09)
I was going say, I'm like, this could apply to any, if you, anybody. Like this is just
team culture building. I mean.
Grace Gavin (18:15)
Exactly. it's like,
if whether whatever you call it, your issues list, whatever it is, is how well are you bringing up issues that are topics as a team and how deep are you getting in them? And that's at the leadership team level. And so what I want people to realize is like, wherever the leadership team level, they're starting with their ability to communicate and their ability to bring up issues and be open and honest. Everybody else in the organization falls downwind of that. So do not expect that people at your lower levels to be really good at this if your leadership team is not.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:24)
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (18:44)
It only gets, it only degrades as you go further down the organizational chart. And so that's one of the questions that I look at is like, okay, how well are we utilizing this, this process, a system that you've implemented? And for other people, you know, it's not just EOS, there's their system in Sol out there. There's Pinnacle. There's so many different ways to operate a business. But the question is, are you just following this operating system? Are you really, really utilizing it?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:44)
That's right.
Yeah.
and the philosophies and everything that, like you said, that goes with it. mean, it's, so what if you've, so you've done the founder journey, you're really embracing like this open, the honest communication, kind of like, what have you learned, or what has surprised you most about yourself during this journey?
Grace Gavin (19:15)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
So many things, I think.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:38)
Like your eyes just start exploding.
Grace Gavin (19:42)
Yeah, I think it's, to me what's always interesting is how much
the roller coaster happens. And so what I mean by the roller coaster is the belief of like, this is amazing, I'm really good at this. And then the moments of something doesn't go right and then something doesn't go right. And I was like, it hits bottom. It's like, I believe in the work that I'm doing, but am I the person to do the work, right? And it's just that roller coaster that sometimes I think as entrepreneurs we ride daily.
I like, we have one great phone call and I help a client. It's amazing. And then I call somebody and they don't answer or I work with a client and they're like, this isn't exactly what we were hoping would happen, but it was good. I'm like, okay, well, how do I get better each time? And that's the constant evolution that I think is entrepreneurs. We talk about a lot, but I don't know if we acknowledge the roller coaster that happens of like, it was good, but I could get it to the next level. And then that feels like a low for us because we know it can be.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:18)
You're like.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Grace Gavin (20:43)
we can keep excelling and there's no top to what we can do to help people. But that also means that like, where's the bottom in that too? And so that's, that is what has surprised me the most out of it because I, what I know about myself is I like stability. But then also I'm in this part of this phase of my life where it's like this, the stability is, is how do I continue to create that? Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:58)
Clear.
Yeah, it is.
It's a roller coaster. Yeah,
when we talk, yeah, we talk to so many founders and I love being a part of kind of the entrepreneurial community so we can normalize kind of these, the mindset and just, or just our life, like what it is, because there are some massive highs, like, and the highs, like you said, there's no ceiling to that high. And then you have these massive lows.
and everybody goes through it. And it's hard, you gotta be, it's a weird mindset of how do you self adjust, how do you kinda get into that, I don't wanna be up here, that's great, but I also don't wanna be at the bottom. Can I just have, can I just coast? Can I just coast for a little bit? And a lot of us are like, that doesn't exist, it's always something.
And so it takes a little grit and gumption to kind of just keep at it. But it does. It's not for everybody.
Grace Gavin (22:18)
Yeah, and it's always the... I think about not trying to have positivity everywhere around everything and acknowledging the lows there, but what I found has really helped me is like if I am in the lows of question, the question I ask myself is what am I learning here? What am I learning here?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (22:25)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Grace Gavin (22:36)
And that tends to make it like, yes, I'm still on the low, but I've learned something either about myself or the process or other people. There's always an opportunity, I think, to learn in there. And that helps me like when that roller coaster is up at the top and I see that low coming or I feel that low when it happens of like, okay, turning it into yes, this is low, but I'm learning here. Yes.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (22:40)
That's right.
Right.
How do I adjust? I'm learning
here. Because I've looked at that, was like, people say, I fail, know, we have found it, like fail forward, fail four. was like, I don't even, I have taken failure out of my language. Because to me, it's just lessons learned. You know, I'm like, I used to say, I have failed, I have failed, but I keep moving forward. And I'm like, you know what, I just can't say.
Grace Gavin (23:12)
Hmm.
that's good.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (23:24)
because I've learned something from every one of them. Sometimes it's you repeat and then you're like, okay, now that wasn't a fluke the first time. is really like something's gotta change. Either I've gotta change, I've gotta put a process in place, but it's a lesson. And I think.
Grace Gavin (23:45)
Yeah, that's so
good. I, you're helping me shift out of that because I do have a, I can sometimes get back into the fear of failure mindset where it's, I, I like to say I'm recovering perfectionist. Most days I think I am. Some days I just fall back into the perfectionism and that fear of failure gets really real for me where it's like, I don't want to fail. And so I, I ended up frozen. Like not going to do anything. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (23:54)
Yeah.
it's called the functional freeze. I've been in there
so many times. I'm like, I just stare and go, I gotta get out of it. Like stop it. But you, but it's real. you're, but you just kind of like, okay, this is not helping. I gotta move forward. I just, I gotta move. And somebody, I don't know, years ago, cause I'm a perfectionist too. I mean, it's like, the things that, I mean, I'm still trying to recover from it.
Grace Gavin (24:16)
Yes, yes, but if it's...
Talk to you later.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:36)
I'm gonna point to my producer Chandler, because I have all these like content pieces, videos, know, social posts that are really on me. It's easier for me to put it and put it out under the company name. But I'm starting to slowly go, I need to have my own, like my voice needs to be out there to support the company. But I like being behind the scenes.
but I will freeze, I will stare at a, like hold a post, rewrite it a thousand times, rethink it, and then not post it. And Taylor's just, and so I've gotten out, like, I'm just gonna post it, okay, you know, just gonna do it. It might not be perfect, but, and it's just been interesting as a test over the last, what was it, couple weeks, I've been more bold, more brave, just to end.
I've gotten good positive responses and I'm like, okay, I'm encouraged, I can do it. This is good, baby steps. But don't freeze. Like that's kind of been my, I'm just gonna, like I think you said it, yes to the opportunity and look at it as, I just need to keep saying yes. Yes, I can do it. There shouldn't be, you know, what's stopping me if it's a fear? I gotta let that go.
And if somebody doesn't like it, that's like, it's their opinions, you know? So, okay, so I was just like, I listened to a podcast this morning and it was, and I think you might like it, it was John DeJulius, he is the, like a customer employee experience consultant, he works for like Starbucks where it's Carlton, Chick-fil-A.
Grace Gavin (26:15)
Yes.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:37)
And he, and this is where I think your company kind of aligns where Know Honesty is kind of is getting to the heart of the problem. He said, look, there are three major concerns in businesses right now, and they are all tied back to leadership. And he was like, one big stat was 82 % of managers are accidental, which means, you know, they got promoted because there was a there was a open, hey, we need to move you along because
there's a position here we need somebody to fill. And maybe they've been there forever or whatever, but they call them accidental managers and they are unprepared for leadership. They don't know how to manage. They weren't trained, they were just next in line and companies set these people up for failure and it's a recipe for team dissatisfaction is what he was talking about. And we see that when we do customer or employee satisfaction surveys for clients.
The number one reason why people leave companies is because of their direct supervisor. And he was saying the second problem is remote leadership requires different and new skills than we ever had before. And he was like, so keeping remote employees engaged and productive takes a different strategy and more intentional strategy, not guesswork.
Grace Gavin (27:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:01)
you know, this whole out of sight, out of mind can no longer be the norm mindset. We've gotta get that. And then he was like, mental health is a leadership responsibility. And I think you'll love those, like, how do we make that the open and honest, making space, active listening? But he was like, it might not be your fault if employees are struggling, but as a leader, it is your problem. Might not be your fault, but it's your problem. And he was like, providing support and,
and creating a culture of support is no longer a nice to have, it's gotta be essential. So that's what he was saying, like the three biggest problems in businesses in terms of what scalability, how do you grow a team, how do you really get your team gelling so that the company grows. And I think kind of what you're saying, the six steps in creating that culture.
of team falls into that. Like you're helping those businesses.
Grace Gavin (29:08)
Yeah, because what it comes
back to is, your employees or your direct reports being honest with you? Like if they're an accidental manager, are they being honest that they need support and they need help or where they're struggling? And if there's the mental health things, are they being honest about where they're at? And I'm forgetting the middle one, but I know that it applies too. And how do get your people to be honest is by knowing them, knowing that you're going to be open to them.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:21)
Right.
Grace Gavin (29:36)
And now that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to agree. want to make that clarification because some people are like, well, if I hear what they have to say, that means that I agree. No, it does not. But you do need to create the space for them to be heard and understood because if you can do that in the small ways and the big ways, then they are going to come to you with the bigger things where a manager says, Hey, I feel like I'm not equipped to do these things. Well, they're going to bring that to you. If the last time you listened to what they had to say and addressed it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:44)
All
Yeah.
Right.
Grace Gavin (30:03)
Because then you actually know what's going on and what needs to be solved versus somebody coming to you saying, here's my two week notice and here's all the reasons that I'm leaving. Well, if you can address that earlier on, not only are you not going to have somebody leave and have that turnover issue, but you're going to get somebody who's really dedicated to the work that your company is doing because you're pouring back into them. It's not this do what I say because I do landscape anymore in leadership. It's got to be the symbiotic give and take because
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:10)
Right.
Right.
Right.
Grace Gavin (30:31)
If you don't have that for your employee, they will find it somewhere else. There are other companies doing this. They're the companies I'm working with and that's the direction we're going towards.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:34)
That's right.
That's right.
Exactly. What do we talk about? Like we just were talking about this in a team meeting today of, you know, we always say like, am I able or can I do this? And I think a lot of times we think can means, like how do I motivate them to do it? And we've got to shift our language to go, what does can mean? What's the barrier? Is it because they don't...
they like the skill set and problem solving? Is it time management? Is it critical thinking? Or is it literally like, and task management skills building, but what's stopping the can? And to your point, if we have more of that open and honest, think Chandler was like, what's too many questions? And we were like, there is no limit. Like in our space of,
Asking questions is the best thing. Feeling comfortable to ask questions is truly important because we won't know how to then, what you're asking for is this. Well, we need to give you that support of how to make sure that you're moving your journey, your career, your education, professional develop along.
Grace Gavin (31:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:09)
But yeah, I I think if you were afraid to ask a question or afraid to share, I don't know this. Ugh, like you're right, that would be.
Grace Gavin (32:21)
That's tough. not just like,
it has to be the back and forth too. So creating the.
the space, being open to what your employees have to say. But then the vice versa on the other side of it is them being open to what you have to say to say, Hey, you're not, maybe you're not meeting this performance goal or the way that you spoke to that client is not how we operate. And here's, you know, that, that feedback side of it too. So that's where it's symbiotic. has to go back and forth, but I often see
that leadership has to come in with more openness and then the next layers don't have to come in with more honesty. And that's how you move towards creating a really open and honest culture right there, but it still goes back and forth. So it's not just saying, I have an open door and my employees can come to anything they need to me and things like that. It's not just you becoming a dumping ground either, but going back and saying, Hey, this is what I need to make this team successful or this company successful and working really in
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:05)
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Grace Gavin (33:21)
Partnership there, so it's not the directive down, but it's not everything being dumped on you either It's the both and there and it is possible and it will say some people will say to me. Well, that's really hard Well, it is the way that you're living hard right now. Is it also painful? Do you want to keep dealing with that? That's right Exactly
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:26)
Right?
Right? Because choose your herd, right? Choose the herd. Yeah, it's interesting,
know, after like, I'm gonna give you a story of after COVID, you know, we held to everybody's, we said, look, don't worry about employment, we're gonna ride this wave. But it was interesting coming out at 2021 and 2022 were our most difficult years with people, our team, because it was just like,
Yeah, we had an oath, like you can say anything, but I felt like the company mission and our goals were not being heard. I was getting comments that we were knocking on my door going, hey, so I'm just not gonna work like, but four or five hours a day. And I was like, well, why?
I'm paying you, you you're a full-time employee. Like, are we, what are you, well, you know, haven't you heard of the great resignation? You need to cater to me now.
Little, I'm gonna put that in quotes. That was somebody that I was like, what? They're like, yeah, the tables have turned. You need to cater to, so I only wanna put in 20 hours a week and you'll just pay me. I demanded that and I was like, whoa, no, that's not how this works. Ended up being, we exited six or seven people.
between like 21 and 22 because of this mentality of.
like work ethic and this, know, I own you now. It was a weird, I don't know if you saw that. I talked to a bunch of other, you know, I went through 10,000 small business with the Goldman Sachs program in 2020. My cohort was like 150 founders from all over the country. And we would sit on Sunday nights in these forums, I'm like.
Are you guys getting in, like, is this just me? Like, what have I done? I felt like this team was well gelled, like 2018, 2019, we were, you know, we were rocking. And it was like, when we came back into the office, it was, I said, felt like these, like aliens had entered their brains. And it was all the, no, we're feeling it across the, you know, it's a wave, you need to set the boundaries. The work still has to happen. Like, we still have to build.
Our clients still expect these things and they still have roles. Their job description didn't change. So having to sit down with each one of them individually and kind of talk through that, it was hard and it was also easy in a way to go, I don't think this is a fit anymore. I don't think we have the right, you know, we're not gelling as a, this is not the culture of what our team used to be and nor where I want it to be in the future.
Grace Gavin (36:26)
Yeah, I think it
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:50)
But I took a lot of stuff very personally. was a self-discovery for me over the last few years because of going through that.
But yes, open and honest. People were very, very honest with me of where they felt like I needed to cater to them.
Grace Gavin (37:03)
Yeah, it's putting the reality out there.
Yeah. And it becomes
this, this you versus me mentality that I saw a lot of. I think, and I, there's a lot to be said for being a remote team, but there are different ways that you have to handle that. Because what happens is that we don't have that in person where it creates the, what I really say this to your face in person, but I would say to you over email. right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:19)
Yeah.
Hmm. these were people, these were in my face.
These were in person.
Grace Gavin (37:43)
Yeah. so like, but like, what I'm, what I'm guessing happened is like, there was a certain way of interacting and that kind of short circuits. And then we come back in person, we think we can say these things and it creates the us versus them. Like, I got to get what I need out of this instead of the, do we do this together? How is this? Here's our company mission. This is what we're going towards. How do I fit into that? How do I do that? Where I imagine that conversation could have been, Hey, I can only work 20 hours because of
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:54)
Right.
Right.
Right?
Grace Gavin (38:11)
I don't know, family circumstances, whatever it is, or you would come in and say, okay, well, let's look at how that would work and how we can work together. Like I'm not, I'm not imagining you knowing you for the bit that I do, Jennifer saying, well, nope, we're done. We can't figure this out. But it would be, okay, how do we figure this out together? Versus just coming in and saying, hey, you need to do this because I say so. Well, that's, that's not how a team works. That's not how a company works.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:12)
Right.
Right.
Right.
now.
Grace Gavin (38:35)
And where we can come together on that and not get stuck in the either or is what we're talking about here is just saying, here's what I have to say. Okay, here what you're saying. Now here's what I have to say. Do you hear what I'm saying? Yes. Now how do we find the alignment in there? How do we communicate so that we can move forward effectively? And the beauty that we have in business is that we have this, this external thing, I guess I'll say that
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:47)
Yeah.
that.
Grace Gavin (39:02)
directs us towards that, that we have goals that we're working towards. That we can use that as our filter, as our clarifying thing. Well, okay, well, that's not in line with the goals that we've set and where we're going. And so how do we, how do we part or how do we work together? Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (39:05)
Right?
Yeah.
How do we come together? Or,
yes, I probably could have used your coaching a few years ago. I am a very direct person. I don't know if I did it as delicately and elegantly as you put it, Chandler's laughing, because, know, it's like I, you know, I can kind of get in there like, what? Like, you know, sometimes I'm like, excuse me, how are we, you know. What I did say was, just so you know, like,
I was like, what? That's not how job descriptions work. We still have to serve. And I said, look, if you only want to work 20, 25, we can look at that. But that means the pay has to then reflect that. And it was like, what? And I should have said, let's work on this together, type of thing. I did, and I was like, let's, here's.
this is one scenario, here's another scenario, and if you don't see yourself in either scenario, maybe the next scenario is you're not in this picture. That's right, lesson learned. I'm looking at you and you're yeah, you're pretty direct.
Grace Gavin (40:22)
It's a lesson learned. It's a lesson learned.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:38)
has been like, you started the, or co-founded and started this company. What has been the most challenging you have felt from being a founder, being a business owner, trying to scale and grow a company?
Grace Gavin (40:51)
Hmm. Well, I would say that my journey was maybe unique to others, at least from the stories that I've heard in that I was in the background of a lot of the work that we're doing. So I was, you know, in development for years of the work that we are now doing publicly, but that looked like writing the book and having lots of conversations with Ken about, how do we make this tangible and implementable for teams and what
what is simple enough for people to understand, but not so simple that we're not really getting to the heart of the work. So I was doing that for years and then came to a point where the question was people wanted this work and they wanted to do it in more of a way than what we were currently offering. And so we were looking at potentially partnering with another coach who would help us do that. Cause Ken had was nearly at capacity with the work that he was doing. And so
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:23)
Right.
Got capacity, great.
Grace Gavin (41:45)
We had talked it through and the offer came back and what the coach said is he basically said the split would be 90-10. 90 to the coach, to us. And as we building a business, I just was looking at that. like, that doesn't make sense. That's not going to work.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:55)
going, we take
all the risk, we take all the financial burden, and we're only getting 10 %? Yeah.
Grace Gavin (42:02)
Yeah. And
so I mean, I understood where he was coming from, from his time and what it would take to do that, but it just wasn't going to work for us. And so this was a segmented conversation throughout the day. So I thought about it, Ken and I discussed it, came back a couple hours later and said, well, why don't I just do it? Like, I already know all the things I watch, like I'm hearing it every day. Why don't I just do it? And looking, yeah. And looking back, I'm like, who said that? Who was that?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:26)
Right, step into that, yeah.
Grace Gavin (42:32)
But that's what I'm talking about where I have these moments of these incredible like belief and confidence in myself. And then I look back and like, where did that come from? That's crazy. Because then it set me out onto a whole different trajectory of being out in public, working with clients, figuring out the sales side of things. Because I was so operations beforehand that like the sales thing on itself is so much looking to do.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:40)
Yeah. Who? Right.
Right.
Oof, it is an eye-opener,
isn't it? Oof, yes.
Grace Gavin (43:02)
Yes, it's insane. like, I've learned
so much about myself and just how to think about things a little bit differently where it's like, I would have never had that instance not happened with that conversation. Had that gone differently, I would have never learned all these things about myself and known how deep the well goes that I have that I didn't, I don't know, but I thought I had that before.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love it.
You stepped into your light. Yeah. Okay, so what do you, what is something that you really like about yourself, that you've learned about yourself, that you wish other people recognized more often?
Grace Gavin (43:27)
huh.
Man, that is a really tough question. I think, do you mind if I flip it? Because I think what happens is that other people recognize this trait in me more than I do, or at least that I think I do. And that is the calm that I can bring to a conversation or to an environment. And I don't recognize that in myself, but people have reflected it back to me enough times where I'm like, hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, I can already feel it.
Grace Gavin (44:15)
This isn't a one off thing. This is weird that this keeps happening. And it's just interesting the mirror that people can hold up. because a lot of times, like we're talking about the chaos, I don't feel calm. I don't feel like I've got all the things together and I smooth sailing like I feel like a duck where, yeah, I'm floating on top, but underneath is just the feeder paddling and going. And so it's just interesting. I'm hmm, where I don't know that I fully recognize that in myself. It's interesting.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:18)
That's right.
Right.
That's right.
But it's something that it is a trait of you. You do bring a calming energy. Just like, I'm like Chandler's going, yeah, we feel it across the camera. So, okay, my question of like, so if you had to sum up your entrepreneurial journey in one word, what would that word be and why?
Grace Gavin (45:00)
I it.
I have been thinking and thinking and thinking about this question and I still don't have the perfect word. So maybe I'll string a couple of words together. Okay, well.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:16)
It doesn't need to be a perfect word. You guys strive
for excellence, not perfection.
Grace Gavin (45:22)
Well, that's probably part of it wrapped up right in there, but I think it is.
This word just popped up in my brain. So I think this is the word, but I think it's the tenacity. Where it just, that is what has been presented to me over and over again, that I didn't know. Like I was talking before that I had, I didn't know I had this tenacity to just keep going, to just get knocked down. And there have been days where I'm, I have the tears, which is one of those rough days. I think we've all had, was like, nothing is going my way. And then the next day I get back up and I say, all right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:32)
yes.
Yeah, you have grit.
Yeah, say yes.
Yes.
Grace Gavin (45:57)
We're gonna try it again. And if I cry again today, then fine. Because the next day I won't, or maybe the next day I won't. And it's just, we're just gonna keep going and we're gonna make this happy.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:05)
That's right, it's a lessons learned, right.
So what do you think is the biggest myth about being a founder, a business owner, that you kind of maybe heard of like, this is what it, this is what we've, what it means, but then you've got in there like, that is not true, that is bunch of bullshit. I need to bust that myth. Is there anything that comes to mind?
Grace Gavin (46:26)
No.
Yes, and it's not just immune to entrepreneurship. I think it goes across leadership. But it's this phrase that people say over and over again, and it drives me nuts. They say it's lonely at the top. And I just got to call BS on that because it can be, but that is a choice that you are making. That means that you either haven't found the people that you can be open and honest with. You don't have the community around you. You don't have the right team because yes, it can feel really lonely, but that's something I think people
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:44)
Mm-hmm. All right.
Mm-hmm.
Grace Gavin (47:00)
are choosing and I've just as guilty of it if I've fallen into or like nobody understands this, nobody has this. Then I have a conversation with you Jennifer and I'm like, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one feeling this way. I don't think we go through life in such unique circumstances that somebody else has an experience what we've gone through. Maybe not in the exact same way, but there are people who can relate to what we're saying. So it doesn't have to be alone.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:08)
Right. That's right.
That's right.
I'm glad that you said that, because I'm going to do my little soap box of, this is why I started Orange Whip. I, my founder, you know, after 20 plus years of working in agencies and marketing and working on big global brands, I got frustrated, started my own company in 2013, my own agency, but I felt...
alone and I felt I was very fearful to go out and like connect. I don't know what it was. was just like, you know, part of it was just like head down. I got to just do, you know, do the work, do the business, serve the clients. And then in 2018, I went through a minority business accelerator and I walked into a room and it was the first time I felt, you know, I had a cohort of like 30 people and for the, it was like,
I am not alone. Like I'm truly, and you're right, it's a choice. Like I had stopped myself thinking, I don't have time to network, I don't have time to make those connections. But that was like a big revelation for me. And there were women and men in my cohort that were in, you know, we were going through this program and just.
tears of like, where was this information? Where was this community? So I know I wasn't the only one kind of feeling this, this sense of just joy that you and relief. Like it is, it's like the sense of like, I've got somebody I can have a safe conversation with. And then, you know, I go into other programs like that, but it's, but I hear that.
a lot, especially in your local markets. And was one of the reasons I started Orange Whip, is a, Hello Chaos is one of the products of it, but it was like, how do we build a connected entrepreneurial community where it's safe spaces, connections that you can go, you think that way? You've had that experience? How did you overcome that? What tips and tricks do you have?
you know, what do I need to look out for in this next phase of my, you know, of the business phase? And all of that is, yeah, you could try to find it in books, you could listen to podcasts, but it's so much better when you can, you know, get on the phone or go grab a cup of coffee with somebody and go, let me, can I ask you five questions? And, but have that go to.
Grace Gavin (50:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:04)
And you're right, it is 100 % choice. Like you have to be open and realize you don't have to be lonely. There are communities that are there. There's somebody that will support. And I think that's something that I found talking with several hundreds if not thousands, a couple thousand entrepreneurs and founders.
Grace Gavin (50:15)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:33)
We tend to also give back to another founder. Like I have never met anybody that's like, they are eager to go, if somebody calls me and says, can I get 10 minutes of your time or can I buy a cup of coffee? We tend to do that and support the next up and coming founder, business owner.
Grace Gavin (50:56)
Yeah.
I think that is a little bit unique to entrepreneurs because there are other people that are in leadership that I'll talk to that I say, hey, use me as a resource. I'm here for you. And they don't take me up on it like the entrepreneurs do. And similarly, if I'm like, hey, can I pick your brain? The entrepreneurs are like, yeah, absolutely. Let's talk through this. And you know what? I'm going to give you an hour of my time, not 10. I had a mentor that I'm going to shout her out, Lisa Cooper. She's a fabulous Cooper People group. And I sent an email to her and I said, hey, I'm looking for a mentor.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:07)
Right.
Yeah. Right.
Grace Gavin (51:28)
you're super busy, but would you be interested?" And she sent back, she's like, yes, I am wildly busy, but I love you love the work that you're doing. So we'll squeeze it in and we make it work. I'm like, this is one of the most busy people that I know. She's fantastic. And she said yes. And that was such a gift for six months to have her time one hour a month of just like, what do you think about this? How does this end it like, no questions asked was for it. And so I think that entrepreneurs are a little bit better about that than
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:41)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah,
Grace Gavin (51:57)
than any other population.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:58)
it's like a weird trade of ours. I'm like, have, like I said, I think we've, with the podcast alone, it's been hundreds. But then with the magazine, it's been several other hundreds. I'm talking like 2,000 founders. that's one thing they always talk about. Somebody wants to give me a call, I'm there. I'm there for them, I'm gonna help that next person. Or we're involved in other.
Like I'm a coach in the minority business community. I think we all kind of wear different hats and try to give back to other founders. is, and I love it. I mean, it's a great gift that we have. And we just need to keep that up. All right, so, okay, so your word was tenacity. So if we talk, think about future chapters.
like your next chapter moving forward, what would that word be?
Grace Gavin (53:02)
It goes alongside tenacity, which can be the negative side of tenacity. And maybe other entrepreneurs out there can relate to this where it's like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to keep going. I'm going to make it work, but that can often, for me at least, I get stuck in the, I'm going to do the next thing and do the next thing and do the next thing. And I got a laundry list of things I got to do. So we're just going to keep knocking them down and knocking them down. And what I've realized is that
We recently started attending a new church and the pastor has given a sermon on joy and I think these things happen because they need to happen for us. And so he talks and he asks the question to the congregation. He says, are you chasing joy or are you just chasing happiness? And I was like, shoot, it's a really good, really good question. And I realized I'm chasing suffering. Like I'm trying to do whatever's going to be the hardest to prove that I can do it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (53:53)
That is a good question.
Grace Gavin (54:02)
that I do the hard things and that's going to work. for me, what that really realized is that this next year has got to be about the tenacity and joy, bringing joy back into it. Just like having those conversations with other entrepreneurs or other clients of just like, man, this is really tough things, but how can we have fun with it? Also have joy in it to enjoy it. Like, it's going to be tough, but we're going to get through it and you're going to be
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (54:10)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Right.
Grace Gavin (54:28)
so much stronger on the other side of that and the joy of that and the enjoyment of it. So that's my, I'm trying, I'm trying. If anybody out there's got some like, here's how you do joy, I'm here for it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (54:31)
Yeah.
That's right. I, I.
It's actually, Sophie, I'm working with another entrepreneur here in this community. She's done a lot of work with the Center for Courage and Renewal and around belonging. And we, because I come from the branding side, and we're gonna host what we call the Joy Lab workshops to help, especially around entrepreneurs, but leaders of are they finding their joy?
And then how does that relate to their personal brand? And so kind of taking all the learnings that I've done over 30 years of working with corporate brands, how do we create personal brands that align with somebody's purposeful joy? And bring it, because you know, it's God's gift, that's why we're here, it's really sharing that gift, but a lot of us don't even know what that is. And how do we uncover that? So she has like a
whole workshop that she does in one day around joy. And then I do a second day around, let's take that and now let's put it to practice. Like how does that shape your personal brand?
Grace Gavin (55:51)
All right, good, well send me the link, because I need that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (55:52)
well, yeah,
we're formulating that right now. So yeah, we're trying to come up with dates, but we will get you on the list for that. But I think it'll be a lot of fun. But because we keep hearing it, it's a gap. A lot of us haven't, there's a lot of people that haven't figured out their purpose or really finding their joy. And even if they're working their purpose, how did like what you said, Emma, I need to find more enjoyment in it.
Grace Gavin (56:00)
Okay, good.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:21)
and change the mindset of how I show up.
Grace Gavin (56:26)
Yeah, because purpose is this big, huge thing that if people can see it behind, we are looking to impact 1 million people. And that's huge. And I write it down every day, a million people impacted. That's what we're after. And that is amazing. But if we're not having fun and having joy along the way, I mean, who's going to want to hang out with us, right? That can go across any work that we're doing. If we don't look like and if we aren't experiencing the fun, the joy of it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:47)
That's right.
Grace Gavin (56:55)
Well then, then it's just a grind. And you know, there is validity to the grind of it. But how do we do the grind with Enjoy?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:58)
Yeah.
right. Well it's like choose your heart and sometimes the heart becomes less hard when you just think about it differently. All right well this is good I love I've been loving the conversation. What you've given a lot of good advice and tips for business leaders but is there anything else that you would like to share like what is the best piece of advice either you have received or you've learned that you want to share?
Grace Gavin (57:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (57:34)
to other founders or entrepreneurs.
Grace Gavin (57:37)
I think we've been talking about it already, but this comes from my dad because I was in college and I was doing well, but it just like the emotional side of things. don't think I was ready for it. And so.
I went to my parents and I was in tears. My mom had double majored and graduated and my dad never went to college. So I had two different very versions of success. And I said, I think I want to drop out. don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't feel like I can spend all this money because I was paying for college on my own. And I just, I just can't do it right now. And my dad said to me, he said, it doesn't matter if you're in school or not. You just have to keep learning.
And so that is what I try to embrace. I'm always learning from other people. Like we're talking about asking entrepreneurs questions. I'm always reading books. I'm learning from my clients. okay, how do they, I know how this works. Like I know the perfect version of it, but how does it work in reality? How does it work with this team? So the constant learning and coming back to that.
And if you keep that with you, it almost doesn't matter what degrees you do have to your name or if you don't. Because if you don't have that ability to continue learning after that degree, I mean, where does it go from there?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (58:48)
Right.
Yeah, it's learn, unlearn, relearn, gotta continue. When people are like, what are the three words that you would give to advice to others? I'm like, learn, unlearn, relearn. Especially starting a company, that's been my, poof, you gotta, sometimes you gotta unlearn things that no longer, it's not even,
Grace Gavin (58:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (59:22)
in the vernacular anymore, it's like, I've learned new information. I can't learn, you know, I gotta unlearn that so I can then, you know, change mindset, change behaviors. Because we have more empathy with people, you have more open and honest and bold conversations with people, you just learn more about how people think, how people consume, how people behave.
And if you're really listening and you're really like, it's gonna change how you think too. I don't know, that's. So if we could celebrate, Grace, one year from now, whether it's over coffee or cocktails, you choose. What would we be celebrating?
Grace Gavin (59:59)
Absolutely.
Mmm.
I would love to be celebrating.
this book that we've put out, it's been out for exactly two months to the day. We put it out October 18th. I would love to be celebrating that being in everybody's hands or everybody knows about it across the nation. And we're getting there. It's in Michigan. That's where we're based out of Texas. We've got Utah heading out to this next month. And so really getting that starting.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:00:28)
Okay.
Grace Gavin (1:00:51)
out into the world nationally and then and then you know maybe in the next year we'll go global.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:00:52)
Let's get on the new, let's do New York
bestsellers list. Let's put, let's manifest it. Let's get that big win. New York, so, and so what's the book?
Grace Gavin (1:00:59)
That's right.
It is called Know Honesty. So same name as the company KNOW. The subtitle is Eliminate the Divide, Become a Masterful Communicator and Connect with Anyone. And it lays out what we mean by honest, what we mean by open, going much deeper into that. There's a six practices in there for people if they get it, that you could immediately start implementing within your teams and your organizations. And there's really great stories because we know stories are how people learn and it's stories from
my life, from Ken's life, from our clients' lives. And it's not just, they're not all success stories. They're not all, I did this thing and it worked great. There's some really tough stories in there that are like, yeah, I've done that before. I've yelled at a team member and I haven't been, I didn't feel so great about that. I regretted that later, but it's the reality of what happens. And that's okay, but we gotta continue to move forward.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:01:36)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah,
we might need to, we will definitely order a book and we'll put the link on the, I mean, can people get, it's Amazon and all that. We'll put links on the, we promote the podcast and definitely.
Grace Gavin (1:02:08)
anywhere
you can find that books are sold. There's also the ebook version if you're a Kindle person. We also recorded the audiobook so you'll get to see, you'll get to hear not only my voice but also my co-founder's voice, Ken. So if you love my voice, great, you get to hear it 50 % of the time. If you're not such a fan of my voice, you only hear 50 % of the
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:02:24)
Hahaha.
I love it. Well, before we go, how else do want people to connect with you, with Know Honesty? How do you want people to find you?
Grace Gavin (1:02:40)
I would say what would help people the most if you go to our website, nohonesty.com slash assessment, there's a 10 minute assessment on there and it's going to give you the real time data on your current ability to be open and to be honest. And then we take it a step further and we break it down into your personal life and your work life. Cause sometimes those can look different and we need to be aware of that and how we can bridge the gap between our skills there. So if you do nothing else, it's 10 minutes right now, it's a free assessment.
Go take that for yourself and then go take it with your team and start to have that discussion of what's getting in the way of us being open and honest and start to put that reality on the table. And then I'm on LinkedIn. If people want to connect with me there too, I'm always sharing my thoughts on life, stories that I have and how open and honest weaves throughout that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:03:15)
Right.
Well, I love it. This has been fantastic. We're, I don't know, out of time, I guess, and always amazed at how fast this conversation goes. I'm grateful that you're on, Grace, and it was good to meet you. hopefully this won't be our last conversation.
Grace Gavin (1:03:43)
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (1:03:45)
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