Mark Bergel built a wildly successful nonprofit and then walked away. Why? Because impact was missing. In this no BS conversation with Jennifer “JJ” Sutton, Mark calls out the uncomfortable truth too many founders avoid. If your work is not driving real outcomes, it is just noise. From exposing the poverty industrial complex to unpacking toxic charity and checkbox syndrome, Mark drops insight after insight on what it really means to lead with purpose. He is not here for applause. He is here for change. If you are a founder who is serious about making a dent in the universe, this one will challenge everything you think you are doing right and light a fire under what is next
Key Takeaways:
1️⃣ Good intentions are not a growth strategy
You can scale your team, build your brand, and raise capital but if you are not creating real impact you are just making noise
2️⃣ Real disruption starts with you
Mark challenges founders to rethink outdated systems and stop treating symptoms when they should be solving problems
3️⃣ If you are not measuring outcomes you are just guessing
Vanity metrics look good in boardrooms but they do not build meaningful change or sustainable businesses
Timestamps
03:12 Exposing the poverty industrial complex
06:15 From helping to solving
08:10 Checkbox syndrome and toxic charity
14:51 Challenges in changing the system
18:45 Outcomes over hope
27:16 Rising Up and listening to lived experience
35:04 One year from now
37:33 Mark’s journey in one word
38:20 The next chapter
42:13 Real advice for real founders
🔗 Learn more from Mark
Website: https://sharedhumanityproject.org/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-bergel-1264b415/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sharedhumanityproject/#
Welcome to Hello Chaos, a weekly podcast exploring the messy and chaotic lives and minds of founders, entrepreneurs and innovators. Each week I have the privilege to speak with founders across the spectrum, founders from different industries at different
at various stages from startups to mature businesses of all shapes and sizes. Our listeners get to hear the real, the raw, the unvarnished viewpoints and stories, getting incredible insights on what it takes to start and scale a business, how to become a better founder, how to become a better CEO or just a better business leader in the community. Today on our show, we have Mark Bergel.
co-founder of the Shared Humanity Project right here in Greenville where I live. So welcome, Mark. Welcome to the chaos.
Mark Bergel (01:09.756)
Thank you, Jennifer. Hopefully my story isn't too chaotic, but I'm really happy to be here.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:14.19)
Well, some of them don't realize it's chaos. I feel like we welcome chaos as founders and entrepreneurs and we kind of structure it. We live in it.
Mark Bergel (01:25.042)
Well, you know what? And you're not looking for this, but honestly, chaos is really interesting when you think about chaos theory and the transformation that only comes with there is chaos. So, and that's it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:36.918)
Yes, absolutely. I feel like you've just summed up my last five years of my own journey. Because I own a marketing agency outside of the media company. So I started Orange Web a few couple of years ago, really dedicated to serving founders and entrepreneurs because I saw there was a gap in the space. But it's because I founded my own marketing agency back in 2013.
and really just been the highs and lows and we grew really, really fast and trying to figure out how to scale and then the chaos forced me to go through a self-discovery and really kind of focused, really focused inward of allowing me to then grow into the person and leader. And I'm still a work in progress, always will be, like most of us, but we'll start us.
Mark Bergel (02:28.623)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:32.684)
I know that the Shared Humanity Project is what, five years? What inspired you to start this and getting into the entrepreneurial journey?
Mark Bergel (02:43.89)
Sure, you know, I was running a nonprofit organization that I founded and that had its own story that came out of my living room and grew into a 45,000 square foot facility and became kind of a very popular nonprofit serving people in poverty in the Washington DC area. And that was its own story with a founding story, its own kind of moment of, I got to do something to help people. But the kind of moment to
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:03.096)
Okay.
Mark Bergel (03:12.85)
that made me realize I needed to move on from that was seeing that I was a part of a poverty industrial complex in this country that treats symptoms and that is filled with money, filled with over a trillion dollars a year, add a couple hundred billion more. mean, it starts to have less meaning when you talk about money in those ways, but a lot of money for a very...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:34.466)
Right. It's like Monopoly money, right? mean, that's.
Mark Bergel (03:38.104)
Exactly, but for very little outcomes for the people who are in poverty. about, I mean, many points during that journey, I said, what's going on here? Like, and I think I lost my way as well and became a willing part of the poverty industrial complex that, that made me feel frustrated with myself. And the more awards we got, the more awards I got, the more empty I felt.
And so the kind of the moment to start this organization came around 2018 when I realized that the people I had served 15 years prior were still in poverty. And I was staring down maybe however many more years of doing the work I was doing without getting what I would call real results for the people.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:20.942)
The impact that you were trying to achieve,
Mark Bergel (04:25.084)
you know, we just, yeah, it gets lost. And when I speak about nonprofits, in case we do speak about them, I'm really just talking about poverty nonprofits, because I don't know a lot about health, environmental nonprofits. I know a lot, but not enough to comment. when I talk about we're treating symptoms, I'm really talking about what I think a lot of us in the poverty nonprofit space, as well as the government, human service space are doing.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:33.602)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:38.787)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:50.582)
Okay, and so when you started this, was it a, you had to close down the other organization and start this, or was it a shift in mission? How did that transition happen?
Mark Bergel (05:04.562)
That's a great question because I was so connected to that organization. started in my living room. Yeah. And as it grew, it was, you I almost didn't have my own identity. I was that organization and it just felt like the community in the greater Washington area was relying on it. We, one of the things we did was collect furniture from people who had more than they needed and distributed to people who didn't have any. And I didn't think it was wise to shut that down just because we weren't solving the problem. So it made sense.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:08.086)
Yeah, you started it and it's...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:24.621)
Okay.
Mark Bergel (05:33.436)
for me to move on instead of take the organization in a different direction. mean, I would have been put that in, handed it off to somebody who was higher up in the organization. The board remained largely the same. And they, in fact, gave the seed money for my new organization. They gave us $1.2 million seed money to start the new organization. And that was really helpful to start the organization. And an economist who I had known from that organization wanted to do this new one. And she's my co-founder.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:36.536)
Right, so almost like a succession plan. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:51.938)
Wow.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:02.786)
What was the inspiration for this? What's the difference maker, the impact maker that you're having with the Humanity Project versus the other organization? What problem is it solving that's different?
Mark Bergel (06:15.728)
Well, yeah, and of course.
Well, I think what's solving is just that we're trying to solve poverty, not just help people. I mean, it's just, I think if there's a phrase that would capture what I'm saying today and this at work is what we've done, whatever our intentions has not been enough. The intentions have not met the results. And I think in the poverty nonprofit space,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:40.504)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (06:45.016)
Many people are too invested in what they're doing. They're building careers. They're fundraising in huge sums, but we're not solving problems. And so I don't want to throw shade on anybody or any organization, but we have to be truthful because these are people dying in poverty every night at large numbers because of the lack of safety. They're losing their potential because of the lack of adequate education and just the lack of access in general.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:57.218)
No.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:13.378)
Right?
Mark Bergel (07:13.978)
I think what we're doing is just a small piece of what's possible.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:17.902)
Yeah, and I love that. I've heard the term and I've worked with several nonprofits that kind of distinguish and try to educate people around being sure that when you know what impact are you having, making sure that all your KPIs, the things that actions that you're doing is actually moving that forward. And somebody actually here in Greenville with I don't know if you're familiar with the Traune Center, you know, she kind of coined the
the issue with lot of nonprofits around toxic charity. Is that what kind of like you're, is that kind of what you're talking about of you get people that get lost, it's more about them and not about the, and so you create this basically toxicity in the charitable world.
Mark Bergel (07:52.7)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (08:10.14)
So I'm gonna release a book this year and there's a chapter called Checkbox Syndrome. And Checkbox Syndrome is that we volunteer for us instead of the people we're helping.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:15.15)
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:20.206)
That's right. We give away our clothes because I feel good about giving away my clothes. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Bergel (08:24.402)
Right, maybe we should.
look at it differently. Like that's a symptom level thing to do. It doesn't mean your intentions are nice, but good intentions don't make a difference. So I have actually evolved out of worrying about people's intentions or feelings, because feelings don't matter. Sympathies don't matter. Your sympathies don't change how many people are going to get shot unless you're willing to take action in your community. So this organization is trying to guide people to take informed action, action that will actually change the conditions that our fellow human beings are enduring every
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:41.475)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:58.368)
I know you're based here in Greenville. Is the geography of your focus this area or is it a national or is international? Where's the scope?
Mark Bergel (09:10.342)
Well, as the name type might make you think, it has to be broad. So I can work from anywhere. I just happen to love the Greenville area. Who wouldn't? And so yes, it's national right now because that's what I know. I know poverty nationally. know our approach to poverty nationally, but I have to believe it will expand. And I do some consulting for people who are working in other countries, but right now the main focus is national.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:27.18)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:38.414)
Well, I love the name. How did you guys come up with the humanity project?
Mark Bergel (09:42.706)
Well, shared humanity, know, shared humanity is the answer to this. It just is. We're not going to solve it through a better government program or a nonprofit idea of the year. It's by each of us, no matter who we are, whether we're in middle school or in the Rotary Club or, you know, in a faith community. If we each do something in our community that that actually can lead to outcomes, it's informed that solves the problems locally. That's how we will end up eradicating poverty one town at a time. I really believe that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:47.438)
Right.
Mark Bergel (10:12.66)
I know it sounds naive, but I believe that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:15.662)
Well, if there's intentionality and purpose, I think that allows us to focus and then you do see, I it's just like any business, both internally as well as what you put out there, you just gotta have that focus on that. So what's been the most rewarding part since you did this? mean, cause that was a big, it's a big jump. It's a big transition, so.
You've been doing it for four or five years. What's been the most rewarding part?
Mark Bergel (10:48.624)
I think learning. have a, co-founder is extremely well informed. She's the smartest person with whom I've ever worked. So I was honored that she wanted to do this work together. I learning from her and from some of my team right now, I have a team of interns and I learned from them as well. And so I think that's been the most rewarding. I, know, sometimes when you're running a nonprofit organization, you're so concerned with the day to day, whether that's fundraising or are all the utilities working in your warehouse.
Are the people you're serving, are they happy, is your staff doing well? You kind of stop learning unless you take time whenever that may be, Saturday night at midnight or PM.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:19.107)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:30.028)
Right? You never stop. You're always on. Right?
Mark Bergel (11:33.892)
Yeah, so I think the fact that I've been able to learn a lot in the last five years, what I really, I really hope to learn a lot so that I could be a better kind of guide for people doing this work. And that's been the most rewarding thing.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:47.054)
I love that. Mark, what do you think is the biggest, what was the biggest hurdle or maybe it wasn't, when you started the foundation, your other nonprofit years ago, and then starting this one, was it easier, was it harder? Was it just like, yeah, I know how to do this, this is no problem.
Mark Bergel (12:10.962)
There was only a small percentage of that. But I think for me, you know, and I was talking to one of my interns this morning and sharing, when I started the first organization, I remember telling myself, I have to at least make it five years so I look like I succeeded.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:26.542)
Right.
Mark Bergel (12:27.396)
And right there is the problem, because it's not about me. It's about the people we serve. And so I'm doing this one a lot more patiently and making sure that before I ask people to give a lot of money, that I have a product that will mean that theirs is a good investment and not an investment.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:30.903)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (12:44.466)
for something that's more territorial or self-serving. And so I feel like I'm happy that I'm able to take my time on this. And now we're at a point, it's funny we're talking today, because I think we're about to launch some initiatives that to me are worthwhile for people to invest in. But the first five years, I think the people who invested were really just so true believers and I'm really grateful to them. Now I think we have some products that they can feel especially good about. So, I just.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:47.245)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:07.106)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:11.571)
good, yeah. Well, think if you're, Ooga.
Mark Bergel (13:13.83)
Finish that thought, Trevor, but yeah, sorry. Finish that thought is, it can't be about me anyway, right? It has to be about what we're doing. We use the words like mission driven a lot in this space, but we're not mission So I want to make sure I'm mission driven.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:28.876)
Yeah, how do you distinguish that? Right, I mean.
Mark Bergel (13:31.794)
that you're not, yeah, if you're not accomplishing your mission, you get out of the work. Don't just try to raise money for raising. I've been in a lot of board meetings over the last few decades where not just my organizations, but other organizations where success is measured by how much you raise and that is distorted. So I think there's a distorted provinciality. I think there's a distorted goal setting and goal accomplishment. to me, is that the...
harm of people who are in poverty. They're the ones who should benefit from all this energy, right? We used to have thousands and thousands of volunteers, but very few people we served ever got out of poverty. And I want to make sure that's not the case across the country because everybody working in these organizations, you know, it's working hard. Again, it can't be about that. It has to be about outcomes. And if you're not achieving outcomes, change or get out of the way.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:03.256)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:15.214)
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:26.99)
That's right, that's right. What's been the most challenging part of, is it just been trying to convince people of it's all about outcome focused and shifting mindset or just now you're back to raising money, developing product, what's been the most challenging?
Mark Bergel (14:51.632)
You are so perceptive. It's true. Those are the two things, right? It's one helping people to step out of the dominant paradigm of any archetypes that come with a charitable philanthropic mentality.
It can't be just about a good idea and feeling good about supporting a good idea or a heartful story. It has to be about outcomes. And we have to believe we can end poverty. Like we're not going to end poverty if we don't believe we can. And I don't think most people believe we can. We accept it as part of the modern cultural mosaic. It's not. It's a tragedy that exists only because we don't have the will.
eradicate it. If we had the will, we could. It's not difficult. And then the second thing is getting myself to understand that just because I fundraised for 20 years and felt that that was part of the problem doesn't mean that fundraising now is part of the problem. If my product is important for society, then we ought to go ahead and try to raise funds to support that because I think it can change things.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (15:55.854)
I love it, love it. All right, Mark, I'm gonna ask a question of what is something as you've kind of gone through this journey and really kind of you're shifting, changing perceptions and all that, what's something that you have found that you really like about yourself that you wish other people recognize more about you when you walk into a room or you're presenting?
and talking that there, what's something that you really want, you you're like, I am this, but people have this misperception about me.
Mark Bergel (16:32.198)
Well, I think it's easy to have misperceptions, especially when you're running an organization, you get lost and you can treat your team a little less kindly sometimes than you want. So I've always regretted not being a little more sensitive to people not being as motivated, perhaps in different ways. you know, I'm, kind of gave up everything to accomplish this mission. So.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:40.898)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (16:55.634)
then I think there's an authenticity, like there's nothing else in me, like there's no self-serving, I don't have an ego around this, it can look like it though, but all I care about is if we end poverty and if we understand that following that, there's a transformation and a transcendence that we could experience in our lives. We're capable of so much more, we exist much more broadly than we see with the naked eye, right? I mean, we know we're connected.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:18.604)
Yeah, completely agree.
Mark Bergel (17:21.342)
I mean, people have told us that over the generations, like Young with collective unconscious. I mean, that's really critical stuff, the quantum physics that showed us how interconnected we are and how non-local things can occur. So I'm a true believer in that. And I think I'd like for people to say, yeah, he talks about ending poverty. I'd like to actually not just judge whether he's right, but embrace that we can and do something about that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:47.874)
Right. Is it become just curious of, because I love that, the pushing on that assumption. And it sounds like the category, the industry of the poverty missions out there, it's almost like they, there's a disbelief, like you said, it's we're doing this, but we really don't believe we can change, but we can try. And you're saying, no, no, no, no.
for as much energy, for as much attention, for as much money that's in this pool that you've got people that care about it, we should be able to create outcomes, create, save lives, get them out of poverty. There's a hope there. Is that what you're trying to like, we need to have that, the hope needs to be there. Is that what you're trying to change perceptions on?
Mark Bergel (18:45.296)
Yes, I'd like to talk to you every day. You're so perceptive, Jennifer, because that is exactly right. I think it's more more than hope. Sometimes, you know, hope is used so much. I remember watching a football coach one time, Rick Newhise, only he's like, hope is not our strategy. Like we had to really work hard at this. We had hope, but we also put in the hard work. I'll tell you just a quick little anecdote, which is that I remember being in a meeting of executive directors of poverty nonprofits.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:54.968)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (19:11.526)
And I wanted us to meet outside of that meeting so we could really work on the region and solving the problems. And I said, how about six o'clock? And this person said, you know, they don't pay me enough to work past 530. It's like, first of all, they pay you plenty to work on poverty. I knew what she made. And what are you doing in this space? Like this cannot be a job. It has to be more.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:28.654)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:35.021)
You gotta care.
Mark Bergel (19:36.164)
It has to be about our humanity. This is not a job for me. It's about our humanity and the fact that so many people are not just marginalized and exploited, but ignored completely at the risk, I think, of our own humanity. think poverty represents to me that hole in my soul, my spirit, because wait, something just isn't right here. And it's the fact that there's so much unnecessary struggle.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:39.555)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:04.94)
Yeah, well, it's in that like the the foundation of Maslow's higher hierarchy of needs of like just making people feel secure. is litter food sustenance energy that if you people have to worry about where their next meal is going to come from. So much energy goes into that and it's it's done. You're never going to get you never move up.
Mark Bergel (20:17.776)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (20:31.442)
Well, I think so. You know, I did my doctor, my master's and doctor work all about kind of what's possible for the human species and how we can evolve. And then I realized I'm not interested in my own transcendence or evolution if other people can't even get dinner, right. Or lunch or school supplies. So as I think as a species, even if we shrink that to as a country, we ought to be able to make sure everybody has what they need. And that's not some political statement. It's certainly not.
I don't think the people who have wealth are the ones who are supposed to do it. And I don't think the people who are in poverty are to blame. I think this is kind of what's our shared humanity and how do we live that every day? And literally how do we live that every day? so yeah, I think we just need to think bigger about who we are. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is one of the great models that we have, right? One of the great things for sure.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:23.32)
All right, and it's, yeah, and it's just like, that's the first. That's the very first.
Mark Bergel (21:28.828)
first.
And you know, Jennifer, there's a lot of research, right? Neural activity, brain chemistry, et cetera, that says if you don't have anything in the kind of survival mode, like if you don't have enough food, your brain won't develop. So we are hindering people's, their own sense of humanity and wholeness by not making sure they have their basic needs met. If any of us went into a starvation or survival mode, we stop the neural conduction at a higher level and go just into survival
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:56.667)
yeah.
Mark Bergel (21:59.236)
Thank you.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:59.682)
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, even just when you take it like the personal, if you're not feeling well, if you're cold, like you're like we go in like last it was cold here. I was at a baseball game and I'm like, I, my brain won't even function. I need to go home and put on my wool socks. And, but it was like, I usually continue to, to, to kick out and work and stay on. And like, you can't, you just, I'm just saying like, I'm a personal, but you know, I,
Working in some of the space I volunteer a lot with you know with with church or with like youth groups and and some of the stats I don't know it's been a few years, but it's You know one of the most alarming stats that I That I that I worked with a nonprofit on Who did some really great developmental like education of it had to be? And they were working with K4 K5
and first grade students is where their focus was. the studies that they had shown were, kids needed to be peer ready by third grade. And if they were not, then it was like 30 % less likely for those students to then graduate from high school. But they...
But to be peer ready, it had to be across what they call base. It was not just education, it was behavior, it was their social aspect, it was academic and then emotional. And if they were not at peer ready, at all four of those at baseline, then it just kept feeding that. And then the stat of by third grade, what was it?
I don't know if it's the state or if it's federal that looks at kids that aren't developmentally ready at third grade, they can tell the number of beds they need in prisons.
Mark Bergel (24:04.112)
Yeah, that's right. That was a statistic that was out there a few years ago. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:06.87)
Yeah, I don't know if that's still accurate. been several years since I've worked with some of those nonprofits. to me, those are like, my gosh, like why are we not doing it? Like it just seems like putting the focus there. And you're right, to me, it's your community. It's that weak link community, however you wanted to find it. Is it geography? Is it country? Is it...
more of like shared likenesses as your community dog love or whatever it is, we're only as strong as our weakest link. And so we've got to work on those weak links.
Mark Bergel (24:47.506)
Well, that's right. And I think sometimes we get things backward, like the weak links are probably our us and our lack of social cohesion, right? And our lack of community. I remember hearing the stat about third grade from the director of education back in the early 90s. And the truth is, educationally, we have not gotten better. mean, there are 23 schools in Baltimore alone where zero percent of the students in that school can read, math at grade level.
zero percent doing math at grade level. What's the future we're preparing them for? I can tell you that that is not uncommon for a major metropolitan area that there are the educational outcomes are
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:22.115)
Right.
Mark Bergel (25:31.632)
You know, if I weren't fired up and idealistic, you get awful depressed, awful quick, because we're just not helping these kids at all. the fight, even today, we're talking about Department of Education. We should be looking at what's really happening. Who's ultimately been responsible? Is it the mayors? Is it the city councils? I am not like an attack dog kind of guy, but I am interested in the truth. And I'm interested in the humanity of this. And the humanity is we have to take away.
authority from people who cannot exercise it in the best interest of our fellow human beings. And it's gone on at every level for way too long. I've seen it all. I've worked with people at every level and that's part of the reason I started this organization because I've seen the ineffectiveness and the inefficiency and the lack of willingness to change course.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:02.68)
That's right. That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:17.452)
Yeah, well, and like you said, focus on the outcomes. If you're not moving the needle, why are you in it? Let the money go to people that are making a difference. Yeah.
Mark Bergel (26:24.242)
And when I say something,
Well, that's right. And there are some. was just talking to someone in Colorado a couple of nights ago. We were emailing and he told me about the coaching experience he's having and 90 % of the kids in their trade school program get jobs at liveable wages upon graduating their program, which was not a long program. And I thought that's something that works. And so I was so happy he shared that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:46.05)
Right. Right. Right.
Mark Bergel (26:51.826)
And that's an example. That guy was a lawyer for a long time. He retired. He became a coach in these programs. That's what we can all be doing. Right. That's the example to follow in my opinion. And to find a program like that. And I've been a part of job training programs. I've started some that haven't produced those results. And we need to get out of the way and let people do it who can do it effectively.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:58.979)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (27:11.672)
What are the type of programs that the Humanity Project is putting out there?
Mark Bergel (27:16.636)
So one of the initiatives on which we're working right now is called Rising Up and we're interviewing people from around the country who have either risen out of poverty or they live in poverty right now because I've been around the table, many tables with mayors and county executives and council members and executives from every sector talking about what we should do about poverty. But you who's not at that table very often is people in poverty.
and we're not listed, they should be almost at every seat and maybe one or two others, that's it. So we're trying to talk to people and learn from them what works, what do they think is the best pathway for them, what can we as a society do to support that journey. And so we're getting stories in my team that's working on it, it's phenomenal people, and so they just started last month and...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (27:46.061)
Right?
Mark Bergel (28:03.698)
think we put four five in the can already and we're going to continue to do some. And as soon as we get a nice number, we'll start putting them out on our website. And I think that's of interest. I think we also, we do have some advisement. So I work with nonprofit organizations that are led by people with more lived experience that they want to help in their communities. So I like helping them build organizations that can really thrive.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:22.829)
Okay.
Mark Bergel (28:27.814)
that they can understand what everybody else in the sector is doing to raise funds or build boards or refine programs. I like doing that. That's another thing we do.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:38.766)
Is it like having the humanity project at the local side so you have chapters? Is that the idea? Or just having some representatives to kind of take what you guys have and bring it to the local level?
Mark Bergel (28:48.112)
No.
Mark Bergel (28:54.94)
Well, the goal is for us to really just be sounding board's feedback and, you know, I don't like the word consultant per se because I like to do the on the ground work, but, you know, we want to reach the whole country. We can't be in every town.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:07.981)
Right?
Mark Bergel (29:08.486)
The goal is not for us to grow. need the funds to keep doing what we're doing. But I'd like to see organizations that are accomplishing it. I don't care what sector they're in. I don't care if we help a Catholic church, mosque, a Jewish temple, or a rotary club, or the Marriott Corporation, or Donahoe Construction. It doesn't matter to me whom we help as long as they can be productive parts of their communities, right? As long as they can solve the problems. It doesn't matter what they do for a product.
line but on their volunteer day make it about solving a problem not about counting how many volunteer hours you had.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:45.646)
so all outcome-based. That's gonna be everything outcome-based. So if you could change two things about the organization today, magic wand, I'm giving it to you, what would be the two things you would want changed?
Mark Bergel (29:49.618)
outcome bait. That's it.
Mark Bergel (30:02.736)
I'd like to see more of our own output for fundraising. I don't do it. I'd like to see that. And I'd like to see us, again, be more aggressive with our outreach to potential partners. So that's what we're doing. But as you know, there are a lot of pieces. When you're an entrepreneur, you wear a lot of hats. And when you're in a nonprofit, I really want to make sure that we are subject matter strong. So I spend a lot of time
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:20.974)
You're wearing a lot of hats
Mark Bergel (30:31.61)
reading and researching and making sure that everything I say is, you know, evidence based and it can be backed up. So I say some fairly strong statements. I want to make sure they're not just opinions or a rant, but they're really grounded in evidence. And so I spend a lot of time looking at, for example, how much we spend on SNAP, what used to be called food stamps, and how many people are hungry and how many people are making a living administering programs that are supposed to solve the problem, but don't.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:42.52)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:51.843)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:00.11)
Mark Bergel (31:00.848)
and that's what I mean when I say the poverty industrial complex. I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about because these are people who often have really big hearts and they get into the work to be kind.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:08.792)
Right, and for whatever reason, they've lost maybe, they've lost their mission. yeah, absolutely. I think it happens in any industry. I was just talking to another founder who, great technology in the biomedical space, but he needs investors and that's a double edged sword of kind
Mark Bergel (31:14.608)
Yeah, I think that happens.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:39.192)
you know, handing over portion of your business and having that pressure. But, you know, it is, but he's like, I can make so much more impact if I have this. But then he gets caught up. Sometimes he's like the power, the proximity of power of, well, maybe I'll just adjust this because this is what they want for me to sell it or to me to get. I'm like, and I said, I hope I still recognize you two years from now. Like, I hope it's the same, you know, conversation. And he was like, don't lose, you know, don't lose sight of the mission.
Mark Bergel (31:57.84)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:08.375)
of and your impact and you know and he's like nobody talks about that like nobody sits and we don't talk about that enough in like founder space and entrepreneur space of because you do get caught up in that real quick.
Mark Bergel (32:22.544)
You know, you get ego attached to your organization and you think it's, I mean, I did, I thought my organization was a reflection of me and so it had to grow and be successful and the truth is it did not have to grow unless it was achieving the outcomes it set out to. And I do think I got lost and caught up in the awards and recognition for the organization and that fundraising and how much we were making year over year became more important than whether or not people were getting out of poverty. And that's not hyperbole to say it. That's what happened. It became more important
than whether or not people were getting out of power. We still loved people, we helped them, we cared about them, we cared about our services, but all those things are not enough if they're still suffering. When we can solve it. It's not like they're suffering because we can't solve it, they're suffering because we don't solve it, not because we can't solve it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:55.8)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:07.842)
Right, ooh, I love that. It's not because we can't, it's because we don't. And I think that, you know, I'm just putting the correlation of, you know, I'm in a marketing space, so, and I always try to teach organizations and business owners of, if you've got marketing people that are just regurgitating what I call vanity metrics, right, who gives a crap of how many likes you have on, you know, your social post or how many emails you send out if you aren't, you know,
either changing perception about your brand so that people will do more business with you or for people to come work for you and they're engaged and they enjoy working for you. was like, those are real outcomes. Vanity metrics do not like, you shouldn't be paying attention to those things. And it almost seems like what you're talking about, the organization, that industrial kind of complex of people are more focused on those vanity metrics of, hey, we
we did this many awards or we've gone to this many events or we've done this many activities, but it didn't produce outcomes.
Mark Bergel (34:15.762)
100 % Jennifer vanity metrics became a huge part of my life and I realized again around 2010 it was happening and 2015 I tried to try to create a new kind of approach to poverty and then 2018 I was like, okay, I'm too I gotta move on. It's just too much a part of the work and I think that is applicable across the board and not only the poverty nonprofit space.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:44.492)
Yeah, I think that gets caught up in a lot of organizations. Yeah.
Mark Bergel (34:48.242)
And again, who suffers as a result? It's the people we're supposed to be helping to rise out of poverty.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:55.982)
That's right. All right, so if we meet a year from now and we're going out to celebrate something, what are we celebrating?
Mark Bergel (35:04.646)
think we're celebrating a documentary that we did about poverty in the United States and how to better address it. And I think the evolution of stories to be a major piece in people's educational or just education on poverty. They'll be able to watch the stories initiative and our website at that point, I do believe will be a much more robust teaching tool.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:10.254)
Peace.
Mark Bergel (35:27.494)
But we're looking to do this documentary at end of the summer sometime, believe. We're still locking it down. And that's where we'll get interviews of people in their places around the country. So we'll travel the country.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:38.222)
Very good. Do you already have a distribution partner on that or like a Netflix or a PBS?
Mark Bergel (35:45.222)
We don't. One of my colleagues and I are just talking it over right now. I've talked with a few people about it. It's in an embryonic stage.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:54.264)
Well, we will, we're putting it out there, manifesting it. Next year we're gonna celebrate it.
Mark Bergel (35:56.336)
Yeah, that's right. I think I'm supposed to do it. I've talked about power so much. I need to go and look at, OK, this is the South of South Dakota. And this is what it's like. This is the four corners with Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah, Colorado. This is what it's like. This is what it's like for people in some of the rural areas in the South that we have, again, ignored in our own detriment. this is what's central Appalachia. This is what's happening there.
I think I need to go to those places and talk with people and let them teach.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:29.174)
Right, I think it's, you know, when people can see it, then it's, you know, I didn't recognize there was a problem. A lot of times we kind of, till we see it, we don't believe it. So yeah, well, I'm excited for that. That'll be fun. So who has been your greatest cheerleader?
Mark Bergel (36:39.451)
That's right.
Mark Bergel (36:49.202)
I've had some really phenomenal team members along the way. I think of the people in my first organization, if they didn't come along, the organization would have never taken off.
So there are people from the community. think of what a woman like Pam Feinstein did for the organization I worked at. I think of what Lisa Stransky did for me since I started the first organization and how she helped me in this organization. So it's the people I work closely with, Polly Poffin Roth or Catherine Ross Phillips is my co-founder. If not for her, there wouldn't be a Shared Humanity Project.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:18.211)
Okay.
Well, very good. Shout out to your cheerleaders. So if you summed up your entrepreneur, your founder journey in just one word, what would that word be?
Mark Bergel (37:23.312)
Yeah.
Mark Bergel (37:33.2)
evolving. Yeah, it's evolving. It's unfinished.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:34.368)
Evolving, okay.
Unfinished. That's a good word. That is a great word. was like, I've, you know, interviewed founders, hundreds of them. And what I love most is we all have similar themes of our struggles, our ah-hahs, our oh-shit, you know, moments. But our words are very distinctive to our journey and we rarely, rarely have any repeats. I think we have like maybe three words that have been in repeat over hundreds.
Mark Bergel (37:40.882)
you too.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:08.014)
And unfinished is a new word, so I love it. If you look ahead to your next chapter, what word defines that chapter?
Mark Bergel (38:20.498)
Possibility, really pursuing what is possible.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:25.196)
I love it. Kind of that, put that hope. But you said it can't just be about hope. It needs to be, it's possible.
Mark Bergel (38:28.284)
We, know.
Mark Bergel (38:32.882)
Yeah, and my feelings about possibility and pursuing what is possible are based on my kind of hardcore research. Like, this is what we know about the human condition, but can we manifest that? Like, we know we're not just these physical beings in this five foot eight inch frame. We know that there's energy that is at the core of who we are and that that energy transcends the physical. And so how can that manifest? How can we be a species that lives up to its potential?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (39:03.726)
I'm all in. I love it. Mark, you seem, you're very disciplined, right? And you've got this, you've shifted an entire, like a paradigm shift from organization into this new organization, a whole different mindset, but you're also changing mindsets. How do you keep yourself disciplined so that you don't lose the mission? Like how are you keeping everybody
on track so that you are a different type of an organization that you wanted to create. What do you do to discipline yourself and your team?
Mark Bergel (39:41.948)
Well, I kind of ground myself in prayer every day. it's kind of my own, everybody has their own spirituality, but not everybody, some people have. For me, it's been kind of combining what I thought were really.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (39:49.902)
That's right.
Mark Bergel (39:56.85)
to me the most authentic truths and then adding that to prayer and then just trying to listen. And every day, if you do that every day, it provides a pretty good pathway for yourself. It doesn't tell you, hey, do this, write that better, use better words, but it at least keeps me from, again, getting selfish in this. I really believe that there...
that's we talked about this earlier I don't I'm not ego attached to this work and I feel quite selfless in doing it but I don't say that to pat myself in the back I I need to do this work like I think it is the most authentic way for me to live
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:35.438)
That's right, it's purpose driven. The purpose driven life.
Mark Bergel (40:39.314)
And then my team, I just happened to get lucky. mean, the interns I have now are spectacular people. Hopefully we'll work together for a long time. And Catherine, like I said, just is so supportive of what I want to do. I just couldn't ask for a better partner.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:57.568)
And was it easier to recruit with such a defined mission and also just a different mission, kind of, again, kind of changing that, hey, we've all been in this space, but this is how we're gonna do it different. Was it easier to recruit people?
Mark Bergel (41:16.154)
Well, you we had 1600 applicants for the internships and we had the research assistant position. And I just got lucky that my interns are so high level that I just hired interns and didn't need to replace the kind of staff position. So yeah, the message seems to hit.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:34.882)
Right.
Mark Bergel (41:38.608)
That's a lot, but I also think when you work remote and everybody can work remotely, get a lot more applicants too. Really increases your application. It won't work for many.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:43.63)
That's right. That freedom. That's fantastic. What's the best piece of advice that you've received as from another founder, business leader that you really took to heart and that's you kind of apply it to how you run your, know, because whether it's a nonprofit, it's still a business. You know, it just kind of operate a little bit differently. But is there any advice that you can share with our listeners?
Mark Bergel (42:13.532)
Well, not to give you a long answer to a question you might want to short one, but I found that business leaders, CEOs of private corporations, for-profits have been to me the most inspiring people. And there was a man who since passed away and that's real sad. His name is Bruce Lee, not the Bruce Lee who was the Marshall.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:30.658)
I was like, Bruce Lee, he had some, hey, he had some pretty fantastic quotes.
Mark Bergel (42:36.304)
Yeah, he sure did. This was a gentleman named Bruce Lee in Maryland. And he would always say, do whatever it takes. You know, keep being yourself. And that can get to be difficult, right? Because you could like you mentioned earlier, you alluded to, do I change to make sure I appeal? Does my message change? Make sure I appeal to donors? Do I change who I am? And that's easy to allow.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:57.987)
Right?
Mark Bergel (43:02.322)
But Bruce was somebody who just he just motivated me with you know kind of believing in me and also saying you know keep fighting and doing whatever it takes and so I Miss him, but I honor you know kind of his message to me by keeping that close to my heart
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:18.99)
Well that and that's good advice for for everybody just just keep just keep going keep moving forward keep focused and and keep winning.
Mark Bergel (43:32.39)
I think it is, I think it's trust, trust your gut. If you get into this work because you feel like you could be a part of something bigger, make sure it's selfless that you're in it for and then keep trusting your gut. When you don't feel good about something, it probably needs to change. Don't just accept it or even embrace it and change who you are.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:51.16)
That's right. no, that's good advice. No matter where you sit in the org chart, that's just good advice. People can lead from their seat and if they don't feel like they're aligned, it's time to change. Yeah.
Mark Bergel (43:57.298)
That's right. Right. Yeah.
Mark Bergel (44:08.4)
Yeah, I should have listened to some of my staff more, I think, in my life, because they've been, I've had some really earnest individuals I could have listened a little bit better to.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:16.407)
Hmm. So that's like your rewind moment. this has been a fantastic conversation. I could I could talk about this subject for a long time. The Humanity Project. I love it. So before we get where can people connect with you, find more information about you, Mark and about the Humanity Project and and help you support you.
Mark Bergel (44:19.12)
Yeah, that's right.
Mark Bergel (44:38.992)
Well, yeah, sure. think our website, which is kind of evolving as well as my team, takes a crack at it. They're going to improve on it. But I think emailing me is really simple. Mark at sharedhumanityproject.org. It's Mark at sharedhumanityproject.org. Or just go to sharedhumanityproject.org and check it out.
Either way, I'd love to hear from people. mean, I think that we do. My colleague was telling me this morning, Mark, we ready to ask for funds. Let's go do it because we have great products. So I think that that made me feel encouraged.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:14.026)
Absolutely. And again, next year, we're going to celebrate.
Mark Bergel (45:17.328)
I look forward to that in Greenville.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:19.19)
In Greenville, yeah. When you come back from Florida, we'll go grab coffee. So thank you. And like I said, these episodes, these shows go so fast. can't believe some of these conversations. So powerful. And for our listeners, thank you for watching us and joining us today. This podcast, of course, will be available on all your favorite podcast platforms. So give us a shout out, a subscribe.
Mark Bergel (45:22.374)
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:49.282)
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