She didn’t set out to be a business owner. She just wanted to teach dance. But when the vision outgrew the classroom, Rachel Epps leaned into the chaos and created something the Upstate had never seen before. An all-arts space built on purpose, collaboration, and heart. Jennifer “JJ” Sutton sits down with Rachel to talk about what happens when you stop playing small and start trusting your instincts. They get into the messy transition from teacher to founder, how to lead without ego, and why building community is the real flex. Rachel opens up about betting on herself, navigating growth, and using AI as a tool not a crutch. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re ready, this is your sign
Key Takeaways:
1️⃣ Confidence is a business strategy
Rachel didn’t wait to “feel ready”—she trusted her gut, even when the risk felt overwhelming. Confidence wasn’t the result of success. It was the foundation.
2️⃣ Collaboration beats competition
From staff to students to peers, Rachel built a culture where everyone grows together. You don’t have to lead alone, and you definitely shouldn’t.
3️⃣ Invest in your brain, not just your business
Courses, coaching, masterminds—Rachel didn’t just build a business. She built herself into a leader. The ROI on education is real and compounding.
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome to Hello Chaos
01:42 Rachel's Journey into Entrepreneurship
03:24 The Vision Behind Arts in Motion
05:20 Self-Discovery and Leadership
07:11 Transitioning from Teacher to Owner
10:05 Facing Challenges and Risks
13:05 Myths of Business Ownership
15:38 Investing in Personal Growth
19:45 The Importance of Community
21:10 Foundations and Storytelling in Business
23:33 The Role of AI in Creativity
29:12 Dreaming Big and Managing Growth
32:13 The Magic Wand of Change
35:26 Celebrating Future Success
36:31 The Journey of Confidence
39:06 Dreaming Big for the Future
43:05 Trusting Your Gut
46:36 Lessons from the Minority Business Accelerator
55:17 Embracing the Unknown in Business
🔗 Learn more about Rachel and Arts in Motion
Website: https://www.aimspartanburg.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-epps-33125614/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aimspartanburg/
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (00:00.147)
Welcome to Hello Chaos, a weekly podcast exploring the messy and chaotic lives and minds of founders, entrepreneurs, and innovators. Each week I do have the privilege to speak with founders across the spectrum from different industries at various stages, from startups to mature businesses of all shapes and sizes. Our listeners get to hear the real, the raw, the unvarnished viewpoints.
and stories, getting incredible insights on what it takes to start and scale a business, to become a better founder, better CEO, maybe just a better business leader. So I'm excited about today's guest. We have Rachel Epps, founder and owner of Arts in Motion, an inclusive arts organization. She offers all arts under one roof right here in the upstate of South Carolina. And it's new, and this is new for us. Like this is a first.
first and only of its kind in our area. So welcome, welcome to Hello Chaos, Rachel. I love to see the vision and I know that we've known each other just a short bit, met you through the Minority Business Accelerator where I'm a business coach in and you weren't assigned to me but I loved hearing and watching the journey and the vision you had for your,
Rachel Epps (01:04.77)
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Rachel Epps (01:26.702)
And was quite a year for me too, so.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:28.549)
Yeah, well, and you had a lot of personal stuff going on. I mean, and I think that's just good to get into too, because, you know, working, working moms that have a great vision, because you went from having just a regular like dance studio and but this is a, this is a big vision. So why don't you just start us out? Yeah, start, tell our listeners like, how did you get started in entrepreneurship or just like starting your own company?
Rachel Epps (01:47.672)
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of scary.
Rachel Epps (01:58.348)
Yeah, so it was an accident, to be honest. Yeah, but I think it was so intentional as well at the same time. Like my life is so, it's always both and, right? So I moved here, had two daughters. I started working full time when we moved here and put them in preschool.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:01.075)
Most of us said.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:11.645)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (02:22.734)
And one of my daughter's teachers was like, Hey, you teach dance. Can I sign my daughter up? And I was like, no, no, I don't, I don't teach that. Cause I taught and managed a studio in Charleston. And when we moved here, I just didn't see that fitting into my life, which is crazy. Dance is a lot of my identity, but I went home and I told my husband, I was like, this is so weird. Isn't that funny? And he was like, maybe you should teach dance. he's not.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:39.463)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:50.695)
Right.
Rachel Epps (02:51.746)
He's usually the more grounded person. So for him to be like feeding into this, was like, huh, okay. So it started with a class at my daughter's preschool and accidentally grew into where we are now with four studios and five different disciplines that we offer. And it's crazy.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:10.259)
So what inspired you to go beyond? mean, you said that you already owned something in Charleston, kind of did a dance studio. What made you decide to expand that vision?
Rachel Epps (03:26.498)
Yeah. So in Charleston, right after college, I started working for a studio and quickly moved up to studio manager. So didn't own anything in Charleston, but was one of her first employees and got to kind of come alongside her in watching that vision grow. And I loved it so much. Jennifer, my gosh. I was just so in love with everything I got to do every day. And
Then it started having babies and decided to take a step back from that and focus on being a mom. And like I said, when we moved here, I started working full-time outside of the dance industry. Um, and it just, it crept back in and it's yeah. Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't deny it. And so I don't, I don't know. Someone did ask me early on, like, why don't you just teach? Why do you want the headache of owning? And I was like,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:12.295)
The calling.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:23.931)
Right, cause it's...
Rachel Epps (04:24.718)
Yeah, what I've learned in the process in my first year was that I actually really loved the business side of things because I know dance inside and out. When I go to the ballet bar, not the bar bar, but the ballet bar, I'm home. That's my home base. I know exactly what to do. I don't have to think about it. My body knows what to do. And there's so much comfort in that. But also I needed more challenge. And so
I could only get that so much in my teaching. so learning business has been that next step for me and it's amazing. I love it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:59.656)
Gotcha.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:07.133)
Do you see, was gonna say, most people are like, this is horrible. What was the biggest self discovery about yourself that either, was that a surprising element that you learned or what was that aha moment of diving deep into the ownership part of it?
Rachel Epps (05:29.122)
I've always been a natural leader and I've tried to like at some points in my life kind of push that off. Like I don't want to be in this limelight. I don't want to be the one in charge, but I actually super love being in charge in a very collaborative way, which I think is one of the unique things about my studio environment and culture that we've created.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:39.187)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:43.379)
I'm
Rachel Epps (05:54.414)
Yeah, I just, I'm a natural leader. And if everyone's kind of like, I don't know, guys, what should we do? I'm going to be the one to be like, okay, this is what we're doing and we're to charge for it. And we're going to do it with confidence and figure it out as we go.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:07.707)
Yeah, what's been the most rewarding part?
Rachel Epps (06:11.414)
I think it's both seeing the confidence grow in my students and in myself. And one of the hardest parts transitioning from the classroom to ownership has been the ego part of it because I was Miss Rachel and everyone knew and loved Miss Rachel and I taught all the classes and I did all the things and now
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:33.299)
Rachel Epps (06:39.126)
I think there's a good portion of our student body that doesn't know Miss Rachel and doesn't know who Miss Rachel was and is in the classroom. so being able to pass that gift on to the teachers and let them become their own version of Miss Rachel, you know, become their own teacher. And that's been really rewarding. So transitioning from the teacher of the students to the teacher of the teachers has been
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:44.936)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:58.248)
Right.
Rachel Epps (07:08.31)
a really cool, because it is, it's very much an ego thing. I remember the first year I didn't get a single Christmas present from any of my students. And I was like, the audacity, but all my teachers got amazing gifts. And you know what? They deserve it. They're the ones in there every day. And, and so when I took a step back, I was like, really proud of what I was on the verge of creating.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:11.645)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:18.493)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:30.579)
Yeah. How did you like, did you have to mentally prepare for that transition? Did it just come natural? Did you have a coach that were like, hey, you need to be ready for this. you know, or like, what was that first moment that you were like, oh, this is different. How do I work through this?
Rachel Epps (07:51.118)
It was the year I didn't get any Christmas presents. That was the realization. And I was like, my goodness, I've been doing this day in, day out. And now I'm not the one in the classroom. So I either could be hold onto my ego or I could embrace this new chapter. And I chose to embrace it.
At the time, I didn't have a dedicated coach that I worked with one-on-one, but I was part of an organization that had group coaching for us. And I think being in that group and digging deeper and leaning more and more into that group, that coaching, the education, and all of that has been what's helped me find my voice as a leader and my confidence as a leader.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:25.906)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:35.826)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (08:44.086)
and embrace each new chapter along the way. Because it's hard. This is really hard.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:47.035)
Yeah. yeah. What surprised you the most? Or what have you learned the most about yourself?
Rachel Epps (08:57.638)
I think it's the confidence piece. really do. What I've learned, especially over the past year, because when I met you, I had just started the build out for my new location and we were ready to move here and there were a lot of tears and I was terrified because I knew that I was doing the right thing. But what if this all blows up and I have three kids and a husband that I'm responsible for and, you know,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:10.309)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:24.819)
It's a big risk. mean, it's not.
Rachel Epps (09:26.134)
And this was the biggest risk that I took to this point. Everything has been so I'm very calculated and careful and there's always been an out and this is like I'm all in. There's no way out. We're just going through it and so trusting my gut because it's never led me wrong and even if I mistakes, which I will, I'm going to be OK because I always have been. So I just trust my gut.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:39.251)
Cause yeah. Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:46.717)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:52.199)
Right. What was the biggest shit moment? know, just the react like, shit, this is it. Or I know you hit some other barriers. was the biggest shit, I guess?
Rachel Epps (10:09.496)
Obviously for so many of COVID, but for me it was, we in or are we out? Am I doing this or am I gonna just walk away? Because like I said, to that point, I really had had, I guess one foot in the door, know, like if I needed to close up shop, I could, I rented space from a gym and had no long-term commitment. And you know, it was just,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:19.783)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:31.506)
Right.
Rachel Epps (10:38.796)
just me and my personal schedule, when COVID happened, I realized quickly from my mom perspective that renting space from somebody else, I had zero control over who came in and out of that building. had zero control over any safety precautions we may need to do. And I'm dealing with other people's children. I am helping raise other people's babies when they come to my studio. And so,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:57.81)
Yeah.
Right?
Rachel Epps (11:06.092)
I take that responsibility very seriously. And so I took some time to think, am I going to stay home and homeschool my kids? Or am I going to go all in on this? And clearly homeschooling was not the path for me. We survived, but it was rough. I called the first...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:15.197)
Right?
I'm
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:22.205)
That's right.
Rachel Epps (11:33.102)
for rent sign that I saw. called that number and very nice man answered the phone and we set up a meeting. I went in toward a space and I just laid it all out on the line for him. was like, look, I'm a mom first. That's where I'm at in my life and I'm building this business to allow me to do that. So I need to know what is my end game. If this all blows up, because we don't know what's happening in the world.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:35.118)
You
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:54.386)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:01.021)
Great.
Rachel Epps (12:01.272)
How do I get out of this? And so we negotiated. felt like, I felt very confident in the deal that we locked in and signed my first lease. And six months, we filled that space and signed a second lease to add on a second studio. And so as scary as that was, that was like the moment where this became real.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:25.479)
So do you think there's myths or misperceptions of that you went in to owning, running, operating a business that then you got into it you were like, those were all lies. Or did you already, because you watched, did you already have a good handle of it? Was there any kind of surprises to you?
Rachel Epps (12:51.81)
mean, there's always surprises along the way. There's always something that pops up. You're like, well, didn't have this on my bingo card, right? But I think that's the fun for me is, is okay, new challenge. Let's go. Let's figure this out. But no, I, I don't know. I just love doing this. And I, like I said, I'm very calculated. So I locked into the dance studio owners association very early on.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:58.098)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:16.413)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (13:21.282)
I was able to do a lot of trainings through them and then, finally joined their inner circle, which is their mastermind program for studio owners. think the biggest myth I was told in the beginning is that, that studio ownership and business ownership in general is very lonely. And while that is so true, it doesn't have to be your truth. So.
I really leaned into that community in the DSOA and have found my people and I'm able to share with them all of the things that I'm experiencing going through. At a moment's notice, I can call any one of those people and ask them questions, complain, cry, celebrate, whatever. And so I've not, thankfully not felt that loneliness because when you're the leader, you don't get the opportunity to share.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:09.085)
Right.
Rachel Epps (14:19.402)
everything with the people you spend every day with, right? Hard.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:19.496)
Right.
Right, well and making sure that whoever you share it's safe, you don't feel like you're gonna be taken advantage of or anything like that. So I think that's a really good lesson just for anybody if they're thinking, because you're right, it is a very lonely place, but it doesn't have to be. I mean, it's one of the reasons I started OrangeWIP was because of my love.
for the entrepreneurial community, especially the women-owned and minority-owned business community of having those connections. I wish if I could hit rewind, I didn't really even was aware of those spaces until I was in the business for five, six, seven years. Had I known there was this ecosystem, I would have...
enter that ecosystem immediately if I could just hit rewind because it's been so rewarding and not lonely anymore. So yeah.
Rachel Epps (15:18.027)
sure
Rachel Epps (15:24.706)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in the beginning, I was a little nervous and hesitant about joining the Inner Circle because it's not cheap to be part of a mastermind group. Coaching is not cheap. is an investment. Yes. And so once I made that mindset shift of I am investing in myself and this is the way that I'm going to
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (15:36.786)
No.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (15:41.331)
It's an investment. my goodness. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (15:53.57)
continue educating myself so that I can grow personally and professionally and grow my business. I think that's the biggest thing people need to change their mindset because otherwise you're just setting yourself up for that lonely experience.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:10.855)
Right, well not only that, it can help accelerate. So the things that, and you saw that through the accelerator, at least, you when I was in my cohort in 2018, there were people who had been in business for 20 years and were in tears going through, after some of the lectures that day and going through the homework, and they were like, my gosh, where was this 20 years ago? Why was this not available?
Rachel Epps (16:37.474)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:40.573)
This isn't you learn in school. This is not stuff that you learn, know, in even working in corporations. Like, you know, I spent two decades in agencies, in the business, in management, and there were still like, I got 80 % kind of viewpoint, but not the other 20%, which is the hard 20 % of, but yeah, people were in tears and it's like, but it doesn't, but, and she's just like, man, I would have paid.
Rachel Epps (16:42.744)
Right. No one teaches you this.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:10.663)
You know, I would have paid for this money in full.
Rachel Epps (17:14.894)
And I think that's the mistake people make is because they're like, I don't have the money to do this. I can't afford to do this. And it's really hindsight is you can't afford not to because all the money you lose and all the mistakes that you make along the way. And you could have avoided some of them, not all of them, but, you know, having that coach in your corner, someone helping you talk through these things, someone telling you about financial reports and all of the things I got into this because I'm a dance teacher.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:33.137)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:44.571)
Right, right.
Rachel Epps (17:45.202)
answer. I count to eight for a living, okay? But that's as much math as I want to do and that's not the job anymore and it's fun and exciting as hard as it is.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:54.259)
Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and like even there are so many resources in the communities, universities, the accelerators, incubators, you know, take advantage of those because, you know, even if they are, if there is a charge, they're usually so modest of a fee. But especially within, you know, your organization, you're in a
Rachel Epps (18:17.272)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:23.805)
category that has like specialized trainings and incubators and you know business coaches and it's those things are so invaluable because you're getting insight from people who have already walked the walk and they can tell you. Right.
Rachel Epps (18:39.692)
Right. So it's, it's industry specific, right? But also what I learned being part of the MBA program through the chamber is that while it's great to have industry specific stuff, there's still so much business that, you know, dance studios, that's just one part of it. And, and there's a lot more that goes into it than just teaching classes. So there's
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:58.578)
Yes!
Rachel Epps (19:07.702)
It opened up a whole world of possibility for me. So, you know, we preach cross-training in our studio. It's important to continue cross-training and try new things. It's the same in business.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:20.179)
That's right. That's right. Systems and processes. that was, that's the biggest lesson. So as you have gone through this self discovery and really kind of pushing yourself, what's something that you really like about yourself that you have found that you're like, this is pretty special, but you wish other people would recognize more?
Rachel Epps (19:23.488)
All That was our biggest lesson, system processes.
Rachel Epps (19:48.814)
That's a great question. I think what resonates with me with what I'm working on inside my business right now is that I love laying foundations and telling stories. So that comes across in everything that I do. I think when we are talking about starting a new program in the studio, I make sure we have a strong foundation. It all goes back to that ballet bar mentality.
That is my home base. And you can't go into a single ballet class anywhere in the world without going through the same process. You're going to step up to the bar and you're going to start with your plies. That is a number one. You have to have that foundation. Right. And so for my students, for my staff, everything, I really want to make sure we have a firm foundation before we take the leap and do anything, anything new.
And that has served me well. And then I also believe so strongly in stories because they help us understand the world around us. They help us understand people. They help us understand ourselves. And so stories are so powerful. And I think that's one of the main motivators for my entire programming here at the studio. It's the basis for our curriculum, for our creative division. We tell stories through our productions.
So I love to hear other people's stories. I can't consume enough podcasts to a fault sometimes. I have to go on like content detox. But stories and foundations are so important to everything that we're doing as educators and as people.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:21.245)
No.
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:38.503)
Right, well I think it's a human connection that cannot be replaced by AI.
Rachel Epps (21:42.446)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Epps (21:46.186)
Exactly. Exactly. And you know, there's a lot of fear around that right now. And I myself have some fear. I love chat GPT. She's on staff. Her name is Susan and she's very helpful. She helps us in a lot of ways. But I'm like, my goodness, we're just feeding her all the information. But you know what? There's so much that humans just the human touch can be replaced. So
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:50.93)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (22:12.403)
No, we've learned that, know, in our in our the agency, the creative side, one operation to me, it just helps an operations efficiency. It doesn't replace human experience. You know, we work on branding, you know, we're doing like big ad campaigns. We can tell you we have tested every tool, chat like it is the experience of the mind of 30 years of
Rachel Epps (22:34.392)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (22:42.301)
How do you design that prompt? How do you push back when you do get something? Because I think that's, you you read it you're like, that's not right. Like, I know enough. Let me question it again. You know, I'm a Instagram junkie, content junkie story, you know, same thing. I was listening to a podcaster who was, she's a nutritionist. She has her PhD. She's been in it for 20, 30 years. you know, she's like,
Rachel Epps (22:50.048)
you
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (23:09.457)
I'm gonna debunk a comment that I got on like one of her clips of videos and somebody, she was like, clearly you took something I said, you threw it into chat GPT and you literally vomited out the comment. And she was like, so let me tell you, yes, you're right, chat GPT gives you that answer. But let me tell you, I went back in and she was like, I put in as a PhD specialist in this,
I, this isn't the information I found. it wrote back and he goes, you're right. We, you know, and it's funny to, you know, you gotta have, but that's the human experience of it. And even in the.
Rachel Epps (23:51.18)
Yeah, for sure. And it's wild in our industry. We did an experiment a while back. We put in what kind of music we wanted. And so it created a song. And then we put in some parameters around creating choreography for a tap number. And I had some friends, they were the ones doing this because I'm still I'm like, it's too much AI. don't understand. But they got up.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:02.995)
Yay!
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:16.477)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (24:20.014)
at one of our conferences and performed a piece of choreography that AI had created for them and to a song that AI had put together. But what's fascinating is as fun as that was to play with and as cool as it is, and it is a helpful tool, especially, you some choreographers are knocking out 2030 solos, duos, trios, and it's a lot. It takes a lot of creative energy.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:28.452)
that's cool. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:44.306)
Right.
Rachel Epps (24:50.552)
So that could be a helpful starting place, but it doesn't replace that artistic creative side that we as humans bring.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:52.775)
Right.
No.
That's right. And we can feel it. too, you know, because as I said, when we use it as like their ideation starters, even like our creative officers and our art directors and copywriters, know, there's just nothing that replaces it's like, it might spark the idea, but we're looking at it going, God, that feels really fake or that's not unique or it doesn't have that brand tone. And we've tested all the ones that are like, you can put in your brand templates. Chandler's laughing because he knows we've
He's been one that sees a lot of the outputs of it. it's just, you have to have the experience of an art director that has spent years looking at how to do visual design that's going to relate to a human, and it feels relevant to that brand and unique to that brand. And same with the copywriter and the storyteller. You can't replace that. It's just good. So you can use it as a starter.
Rachel Epps (25:44.515)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:57.395)
But, and then you can see it as a output, the refinement, the pushing. But at the end of the day, we see it helps just in the middle. You gotta have experience going in and being able to do the right inputs. And then you have to have the refinement and the pushing to make it kind of that real relevant human brand connection.
Rachel Epps (26:26.475)
sugar.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:26.491)
And only humans can do that. And I know it's learning and all that from that, but I still believe that even human to human, if we watch an entire dance that was purely AI generated, we wouldn't enjoy it because we would, I think we as our human lizard brains, we would discern that as, that feels kind of artificial. I'm not gonna enjoy that as much. Yeah, that's right.
Rachel Epps (26:50.262)
Yeah, emotion and the heart behind it. can't, a computer can't generate that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:58.577)
No, uh-uh. And I don't think it'll ever get there. mean, know it's, it will, it's artificial learning and machine learning, but it's still, I don't think it's ever gonna take away that human, the human experience, the human connection and what's in that emotion, that heart. I just don't think it's gonna be replaceable to that. Yeah. Cause then I'm not worried about it either. Cause I was like, you're gonna, people are gonna pay for that. You know what mean? So.
Rachel Epps (27:19.266)
I don't either. I don't either. I'm not worried about it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (27:28.915)
If other studios, we've seen that other agencies that use AI technology without the experience, they're losing clients left and right because it's not working.
Rachel Epps (27:40.098)
Right, because people are picking up on it. They know when it's genuine, like you said.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (27:43.143)
Right. Yeah. That's fun. So what keeps you up at night?
Rachel Epps (27:50.732)
so much. my goodness. I, we're in hyper growth mode right now. You know, let's move to this new location and, my, my mentor always tells me that if your dreams aren't big enough, or if your dreams don't make you want to throw up, they're not big enough. And so I'm like, well, I want to throw up all the time. So
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (27:57.617)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:15.495)
Right.
Rachel Epps (28:16.46)
I wanna get to a point where maybe I don't feel that way for a little bit, but right now I've just accepted that that is where we are. And I dream big all the time. We actually have a showcase tomorrow for our company students. And the theme is a million dreams because we've been really experimenting this year, particularly with our company members.
You know, you get to a point where you just know you're about to outgrow the model that you've been in. I'm always, my team always tells me, they're like, you're 10 years ahead of us. We have to like figure out where you are and work backwards. And I'm like, yeah, that's, mean, when I speak to you, it's 10 years in the future and that's where we are. So figure it out. It's a fun game we play, but so.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:48.477)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:03.197)
Right. Right. That's right.
Rachel Epps (29:10.006)
I came to my team this summer and I said, listen, here's what I want to do. I'm going to create a triple threat company. We're going to have these kids train in singing, dancing, acting. We're going to have them do all of these things. And in addition to the two big productions that we do every year and now the musical that we do in the summers, we're going to do a company showcase. And it's going to be
you know, taking it back to our roots as dancers, as artists, and we're gonna have a true dance concert, which we haven't done in a long time because we do these big productions where we take all the arts that we offer and you can see them come together. And it's been so fun to watch. Like I said earlier, I've created really a collaborative environments. One of our core values is we teach collaboration over competition.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (29:43.667)
that'll be fun. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (30:05.816)
to our students, but also as a creative team, we really are able to work together. So whether you're here 20, 40 hours a week, or you just come in and teach three classes a week and that's it, we're all connected and work collaboratively together. So it's this really beautiful artistic environment where we still get to feed ourselves as artists and not just educators and teachers coming in and teaching the basics of play.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:26.216)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:32.647)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (30:35.116)
So yeah, it's been really fun to experiment this year and see, okay, this is working. We're gonna lean into this. This is not working. So we're gonna tweak that and lay the foundation for next season, which this is a little preview if any of my people are listening, but next season, season eight will be a season of change for us. There's gonna be a lot of really amazing, fun things come in our way.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:45.64)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:51.805)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:59.228)
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:04.547)
well good. I'm excited for you. There we go. If you could change two things about your business. I gave you a little magic wand. Two things to change. What would you change?
Rachel Epps (31:05.474)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (31:20.334)
That's an interesting question because I think I'm where I am strategically and purposefully. But if I could change anything, our growth would have happened a little bit faster over this past year. There's so many things outside of our control and business and that's okay. But like I said, we've been experimenting this year. So we've learned a lot in the process. So we're prepared for that. I think more prepared for that growth than we would have been.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:38.781)
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:50.109)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (31:51.51)
if it had just happened the way I would have liked. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:56.279)
Sometimes the universe speaks to us to go, let's be more method.
Rachel Epps (32:02.326)
Yeah, breaks a little bit. Slow your roll. I don't know what the other thing would be. I, like I said, I'm 10 years into the future in this thing. So I see, a world where we have, you know, three to 500 students and we are training, kids who just do this for fun and kids who want to go pre-professional.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:13.031)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:29.917)
right?
Rachel Epps (32:30.818)
But even if they don't ever go on to be a professional performer, they can take whatever they learn here in our walls and apply it to school, work, everything, life, because that's what dance gave me. That's what all the arts have given me. And so that's my purpose. And so...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:41.394)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:48.147)
That's right. Well, it makes you a better, I think it makes you a better student. I mean, because it's almost like a third language. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (32:54.446)
For sure. Yeah. There's so many life lessons that happen inside the studio that bleed out into their lives when they come here. This week has been show week. So we were in tech mode. The kids have had dress rehearsals. That means late nights. they've got homework. So they've got to learn how to manage their time so that they can get those things done.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:20.764)
That's right. They're building their own resilience, right? As we...
Rachel Epps (33:23.992)
They are. And as a mom of three of our dancers, that is not always the funnest lesson to teach them and go alongside them as they learn, but it's so important. And that's what any extracurricular activity does that. But I believe so strongly in the power of the arts that kids are learning so much and building their confidence that they're going to be able to go out into the world and be resilient.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:27.027)
I'm
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:35.271)
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Epps (33:53.108)
wonderful human beings.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:54.525)
That's right. Okay, so I know you're 10 years out, but let's like, if we met next, know, February, what will we be celebrating a year from now?
Rachel Epps (34:05.614)
Mmm.
Well, I can't give away too much. There's so many things behind the scenes that we are working on getting ready to launch in the next couple of months. I think the... How do I say this without giving it away?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:11.623)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (34:29.036)
I don't know, next season's gonna be huge. We're gonna be celebrating everything that season eight brings for Arts in Motion.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:34.789)
All right, season eight is what we're gonna be celebrating. Is it the launch of season eight or that everything's come together for season?
Rachel Epps (34:36.536)
Yes.
Rachel Epps (34:46.05)
I think it'll be everything coming together. think because we're preparing the launch now that'll be in the next couple of weeks and months. We'll be rolling out new things. We're meeting with our company, current company and prospective company members this weekend about some of those changes. And I think that they're going to be really excited about that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:48.316)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:01.703)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:10.047)
okay, so we're manifesting it. We're putting it out there in the universe. All right. If, okay, so in one word, how would you sum up your entrepreneurial, your founder journey?
Rachel Epps (35:13.454)
We are, we are.
Rachel Epps (35:25.006)
Mmm.
Rachel Epps (35:28.942)
I think I have to say confidence. Finding confidence in myself, preaching confidence to our students. Because if you can find your self-confidence, you can face anything that life gives you. School is hard, math is hard, and if you can just be self-confident that you're going to be able to get through it, you're going to be okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:54.951)
You can do anything, right?
Rachel Epps (35:56.034)
You can do anything. And so that extends to me as an entrepreneur, just having the confidence. really, truly, when I started this business, people were like, you should join the chamber. And I'm like, I'm just a dance teacher. No one wants to talk to me or what could I bring to the table? And now I realize I'm not just a dance teacher. I'm so much more than that. finding that confidence has been really empowering.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:09.683)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:16.839)
Right. That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:25.139)
That's right. I love that word. And you're instilling and teaching confidence to your teachers. you're passing it on. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (36:29.804)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. My biggest thing in, starting this and starting to grow my team has always been, I don't think it's right or fair that I'm the only one that gets to live out my dreams. And so I really try and make it a point to meet with my, team and get to know them and their dreams and then see how can we make those streams come true together? Because, you know, as, as dancers, creators, artists,
I'm not the only one with a big vision. A lot of us come in. And so I try and work with them. And then again, with our students, that's one of the things we've experienced and experimented with this year is asking them, what do you want out of your training here? Instead of just saying, you have to learn your plies and you have to do all of these things, or you're never going to make it as a dancer. Like, what do you want?
Do you want to be a dancer? Do you just want to enjoy this for fun? You know, all those things and helping them get to those, the point where they can achieve those goals.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:26.567)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:36.251)
Right, that's good. All right, so look into the next chapter. What word defines that chapter?
Rachel Epps (37:45.678)
Mm.
think it's dreaming big. Just big,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:50.899)
Just dream big. Keep the vision. What's, cause you're like, I'm already on year 10. What's year 30?
Rachel Epps (37:58.7)
Yeah, I'm really, I'm so I'm like, we're gonna do this and this and my team's like, Whoa, whoa, slow down.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:05.075)
Like Rachel, we're just trying to get through 2026 here. Like, let's get through. And you're like, no, no, I'm on 2035, people. Let's go.
Rachel Epps (38:09.336)
you
No, no.
Listen, last year I told them we were going to go from two shows to three. But the way I presented that was I was like, well, you know, at some point we're going to have eight shows a season. And they were like, whoa. And I was like, don't worry. Next year we're just doing three. And then season eight, I'm projecting we're going to do six. And they're like, my gosh, what are you doing?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:31.827)
I'm
Rachel Epps (38:40.642)
But it's all, it's not just, and I think that's the other thing is like building trust with my team and our parents and students. It's building that trust so that they're trusting me and coming alongside me with these dreams because I'm not just saying we're gonna do this with no purpose. There's a purpose for everything.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:45.778)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:54.739)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:59.627)
Right. Well, and I think by you pushing the team to when you say, we're going to do eight shows a year and they're thinking, how do we get that done? also, you know, and then you're like, hey, we're only going to do three. It forces the their brain reset to go, OK, this is an opportunity for me to rethink. How do we get this done? How do I support operations? Do I need to voice up to Rachel to go?
Rachel, need to have, like we'll need to make sure we have two other people or we need to invest in this tool or we need to really systematize this in order to be able to meet that bigger objective. So I think it just, by leaders presenting those kind of big visions, it really does kind of force the team. And then you can see who,
Rachel Epps (39:49.123)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (39:56.785)
Not everybody's gonna be a, will be next to you as you meet that. People can, you know, and some people might go, you grow people, some people might, like I've had people on my team that are like, you know what, this is the role I play. I don't wanna manage. I wanna do this role and I'm gonna perfect it. And that's great. And as leaders and managers, we have to recognize how do we meet people where they are.
Rachel Epps (40:03.66)
Yeah, you outgrow people along the way.
Rachel Epps (40:25.88)
For sure. look at my team all the time and I'm like, just don't understand. Like I can't imagine a world in which I don't own my own business. A world in which I work for somebody else. It seems so crazy to me. And yet I have one team member who has been with me almost from the beginning. She's my biggest cheerleader, my number one fan.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:26.139)
and help them succeed where they are.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:40.989)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (40:53.938)
She started off as a dance mom and has grown, really grown into an amazing team member. And she's like, I don't want to do what you do, but I love doing this with you. So we all have our special gifts and places. And I think as a leader, being able to recognize people's gifts and pulling them up.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:06.301)
Yeah.
Right? And there's
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:19.315)
That's right.
Rachel Epps (41:24.13)
to where they may not see potential in themselves, also recognizing, they really don't want that. I can't push that. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:29.009)
Right, I can't push that. Yeah, absolutely. So what's the best piece of advice you'd give another founder or business owner when they need to aggressively scale? Kind what's been your magic ingredient to do that?
Rachel Epps (41:44.504)
mean, honestly, it's trusting my gut 1,000%. The times that I have struggled the most is when I'm doubting myself. And I don't think that everyone has that gift, that strong intuition. So I don't know how to teach that. But if you feel that with every fiber of your being,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:06.546)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (42:12.5)
Trust it. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Even if it's crazy, like even if, you know, some people say I moved to this location too soon and they are right in a lot of ways. You know, when you're looking, digging into the business, they're, they are right. But I know with every fiber of my being that this is where we needed to be. And I prepared every contingency to just
crawl and scratch and claw our way through that hard part. And it's going to serve us well. It's not the easy path, but it's the right path for me. And I think you have to have that, the audacity to choose the hard.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:46.461)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:59.099)
Right. I think know yourself, know your gut. Because I do think there is a, we've heard a lot of founders who was like, you, your energy, you can feel it if you're in the wrong circle. If you, you know, you can feel it if you're, if the team isn't, isn't jiving and it's not collaborative, like, or your team can sense your angst, right? So.
Rachel Epps (43:13.068)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Epps (43:24.931)
Yes.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:26.739)
I think there's a lot to be said about knowing yourself, feeling your intuition, trying to understand is that from fear? Is it just financial, like what is it and work through it? But reading that, yeah.
Rachel Epps (43:33.666)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Epps (43:44.416)
Mm hmm. And that's been a for me this year is really, all right, I trust my gut, right? now it's time for me to kind of back off a little bit and trust my team. Like I have, I have given them what they need to succeed. And now going back to that whole idea, I shouldn't be the only one to, live out my dream. They love what they do at this studio. Like I've, I've been able to create.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:59.719)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (44:14.668)
some dream jobs for people. And so it's time for me to back off and let them shine. And so that's been one thing that we joke about this year is I need to go away more. You guys take control and do it. so trusting your gut, yes, but also trusting your team. And that's hard to do a lot of times, but it's also so important. Right. And then knowing when
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:25.96)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:38.779)
It's part of what you have to do to scale and grow.
Rachel Epps (44:44.51)
win to back off, but also win to step back in. So it's all, it's never ending. There's never, you never are going to get to the point where you're just, well, did that, solved that problem. Done.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:50.845)
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:54.995)
That's right.
What was the, I'm just curious, what was the best, I don't know, advice or I don't know if advice is the right word, but what was the biggest thing you got out of the minority business accelerator?
Rachel Epps (45:15.646)
There's so many moments that...
We're so eye-opening in a lot of ways, you know, we started off day one with the financial boot camp and all of us wept in tears.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:30.323)
Yeah, those are yeah, well as I and I said as a coach I I go to those just more of like I've got to remind me you know like it jars me I learned something new every year when I just sit in that because rich clays was one more case like why do you attend these I'm like we're just like I'm I'm always a work in progress and I you know and I'm not in the books all that you know cuz I
Rachel Epps (45:55.278)
No, it's burning.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:58.131)
I delegate that to a team, I'm like, it just reminds me or I'm like, ooh, I've heard somebody's story and I'm like, ooh, that is very relevant. I need to bring that back to the house, yeah.
Rachel Epps (46:10.146)
Yes. Yeah, we're all that work in progress. And I think the it's very easy. I think this is a very easy answer to say. But, you know, in the MBA program, the whole thing, the whole experience is culminating to your strategic growth plan, right? Your S gap. And so putting that together,
Again, think the reason I was accepted into the program is because I shared with Wendell and that's what my mentor tells me is if your dreams and goals don't make you want to throw up, they're not big enough. at that point in life, I really wanted to throw up. so working on that S-GAP and putting that plan in place felt like, that's a lot of
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:51.123)
Sorry.
Rachel Epps (47:05.944)
big stuff on paper. It's not just here and it's not just here. It's now in the universe. Now I got to do it. But then also learning that that document is not finite. It's all evolving.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:21.307)
No, it's always, still reflick, I update mine every year. I mean, I had a three year, the three year ESCAP in 2018 and redid it. you you redid it in 2020, redid it again, because the 2020 was like, you know, did that. But yeah, every year we kind of look at it and go, is this three to five year outlook, but what is the action plan in the year one?
Rachel Epps (47:41.39)
Nope, not.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:51.175)
Like what's our 12 month action plan to continuously get to that? And it's an ever.
Rachel Epps (47:55.244)
And then looking, is that goal still relevant? Because it may not be the way that 12 worked out.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:59.106)
Right. No. That's right. And that's kind of what, you know, when I started the agency in 2013, I did a three year growth plan, action plan, and it was interesting when I reflect back on it and, you know, a couple of years later, I was like, wow, I hit the big, like the financial, but how I thought my action plan, how I thought I was going to get there,
Rachel Epps (48:26.424)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (48:28.243)
And I would have never, you know, I like, I had it all method, you know, the method. was like, I'm doing this, I'll hit this number. I hit the number, but when I went like, it was like ping, ping, ping, roller coaster everywhere. then, yeah, you never know.
Rachel Epps (48:44.366)
was like raising our children, right? Like you, you're looking at them and you're like, oh my God, why can't you just figure this out? Why is this so hard? I feel like that every single day in my business, you know, I step back and I reflect and I'm like, if I had just done this from this get go, would, we would, but I had to learn that lesson the hard way, right? Like I couldn't just go in, someone could be telling me the same thing.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:07.175)
Right.
Rachel Epps (49:11.294)
in the DSOA inner circle and in MBA, I'm hearing all these things that I've heard before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But if knowing and doing are two different things and if you're not doing it, you don't actually know it. So I love. Yes.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:22.503)
right
Right, that's a aha. Knowing and doing is, yeah. And it's so funny, because I was talking to another at breakfast this morning, an old colleague of mine, and he and I were just being, he's like, John Ray's like, do you know how many people, because you know, my marketing business, we go in and we think we're solving an advertising problem, and what we find is we're solving a branding or a marketing operations problem.
Rachel Epps (49:54.798)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:54.995)
so that their advertising spend works harder for them. And we also find that people have a business plan, they have a financial plan, but they have no strategy or action plan to get there. And we're talking about $250 million, $500 million, million dollar, billion dollar companies who are,
doing the same, learning the same thing. They're just bigger juggernauts. They've grown because the market grew or they were handed a company from a parent or they're a second generation or a third generation and they never had to like sit down and think through and build not just an S-GAP, but then, you know, cause part of the S-GAP is you put together smart goals.
Rachel Epps (50:27.309)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:51.026)
Well then each one of those SMARC goals needs a strategy and action plan to achieve those. Most companies haven't even done that. Like there is none of that. And so we sit down and go, well first of all it's like, that's not even an objective. Like that's not even a measurable, attainable objective. It's not even worded. And so I tell that to all the, I mean I know you weren't assigned to me, but I always tell that to anybody that's assigned to me of like, you think you're like,
Rachel Epps (50:56.43)
And as easy as that. No.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:19.633)
You're just a small business starting out. These are problems that we're helping large companies solve. you're just getting ahead of it. You're investing in yourself this time and energy so that you can accelerate and be better than some of the bigger companies that you walk into. So like you need to have the confidence when you walk into a chamber networking and you go, wow, 500 employees. And I said, cause I like,
there is an 80 % chance that they haven't done the strategy, the action, the thinking that you're learning in this class.
Rachel Epps (51:50.786)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Epps (52:00.174)
And I was listening to your conversation with Rebecca Jensen. And she said, she realized nobody knew what they were doing. No one knows whether we're all making it up, right? So, okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (52:45.207)
I'm sorry, Rachel. Hold on, I can't hear.
Rachel Epps (52:46.734)
It's okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (52:51.495)
Hold on. Can you hear me, Rachel? I can't hear you yet.
Rachel Epps (52:54.286)
I can hear you, can you hear me?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (52:58.225)
Hold on.
Rachel Epps (53:01.966)
you
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (53:37.782)
Okay, I'm back. Uh-uh, can't, I can't hear you. Okay, good, good. See, this is what happens. I get a faulty wire and I'm like, ugh, I know we're, uh-uh. We just edit that part out. Okay, yeah, okay, so Rebecca Jensen, yeah.
Rachel Epps (53:40.27)
All right, can you hear me?
Rachel Epps (53:56.17)
Yeah, so I was listening to your conversation with Rebecca Jensen and she said she realized that she she realized that no one knew what they were doing. Right. We're all just making this up. And I think there's this misconception. And I always use the example when when we're trying to figure something out in our in our team. I'm like, would the CEO of Wal-Mart or Target?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (54:07.78)
Yeah.
Rachel Epps (54:23.468)
Like, how would they do this? They don't know. You know, like, there's so many things. And there's freedom in that, I think, if we can, like, let go of the fact that no one knows what they're doing. You know, I keep equating a lot of this to parenting because in my line of work, I'm really... It is this...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (54:40.462)
Yeah, it's a bit. Well, this is a baby. You know, you're raising from infant to to, you know, they leave the payroll. They've exited the building.
Rachel Epps (54:52.078)
Maybe, maybe they do. Maybe they stick around. like I'm raising, raising my baby, my business. I'm raising my employees. I'm raising my students. And in a lot of ways I'm raising their parents too. We have, there's a lot of education that happens. But when you are able as, as a founder and entrepreneur, if you're able to realize that we're all just out here making it up, just like when they hand you that little baby at the hospital and you're like, now what?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (55:20.26)
That's right.
Rachel Epps (55:21.694)
Who let me start a business? What? That was a good idea. But here we are. So now we got to figure it out and making it more of a game and having fun in that learning instead of like running away when things get hard, just digging in. It's fun.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (55:27.598)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (55:36.152)
Yeah. Well, that becomes part of your brand, right? Of why people want to work for you because you've turned running the business, operating the business, figuring things out. That becomes part of your culture. And I love it.
Rachel Epps (55:40.577)
Exactly.
Rachel Epps (55:50.786)
Yeah, yeah. And it's not just me coming in and telling them what to do. It's us as a team figuring it out. Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (55:57.038)
That's right, help everybody coming together. Yeah. I love that. That is so good. And I can't believe we're out of time. We're always like, these episodes go by so fast. But before we go, where can people connect with you, find more information about what you're doing in season eight so they can keep watching what's happening?
Rachel Epps (56:16.451)
less.
Yes, and we're launching season eight. I think we just decided this morning that registration will open officially for season eight, April 15th. We'll take enrollments all year long. So season seven still happening, baby. We are www.aimspartenberg.com. So A-I-M spartenberg.com. And then we're Aimspartenberg on all socials as well.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:28.246)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:33.688)
Let's go.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (56:42.828)
Okay, and that's for Arts in Motion. Motion, all right. Thank you, Rachel, I appreciate it. This was great, loved hearing your story and I know our listeners did too. You gave such good insights. For everyone listening or watching, thank you for hanging out with us today. The podcast will obviously be available on all your favorite podcast platforms, so subscribe to Hello Chaos, give us a like, maybe a five-star review on Apple or Spotify.
Rachel Epps (56:46.08)
Arts in Motion, that's right. Thank you.
Rachel Epps (56:54.83)
Thank you.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (57:10.422)
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