Kevin Smith knows the chaos. He spent years in commercial marketing before launching For Goodness Sakes, a mission-driven agency built for nonprofits, public health, and social impact. In this episode, Kevin joins Jennifer Sutton to talk founder mindset, business leadership, and what it takes to turn strategy into outcomes that actually matter. He breaks down how behavioral science makes messaging work, why nonprofits need sharper tools, and what founders can learn from the frontlines of community engagement. This one’s for the builders who want to lead with purpose and still win.
Key Takeaways:
1️⃣ Specializing creates momentum
Kevin built For Goodness Sakes around nonprofits and social impact, turning clarity into growth. When founders commit to a niche, everything else moves faster.
2️⃣ Thought leadership is a full-time job
Launching a new venture means writing, podcasting, posting, and pushing the message nonstop. Visibility takes muscle. Founders need to treat content like core infrastructure.
3️⃣ Strategy clears the chaos
Kevin leans on strong planning to navigate uncertainty and shifting markets. A sharp plan protects your energy, your team, and your vision.
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome to the Chaos
05:13 Challenges of Being a Founder
10:15 The Importance of Strategic Communication
14:23 Behavioral Science in Nonprofit Marketing
18:13 Personal Growth Through Nonprofit Work
22:17 Overcoming Biases and Misconceptions
26:22 Navigating Post-COVID Challenges
28:20 Navigating Customer Interactions in a Hybrid World
30:41 Building Team Culture in a Remote Environment
33:02 Creative Outlets and Personal Insights
34:56 Lessons from the Past: Aha Moments and Regrets
38:04 Specialization and Impact: The Path Forward
40:51 Embracing Challenges and Problem Solving
44:07 Self-Care and Stress Management Strategies
45:17 Facing Uncertainty in Nonprofits
47:35 The Importance of Strategic Planning
50:49 Reflections on Crisis and Resilience
51:26 Defining the Founder Journey
52:47 Looking Ahead: Scaling for Impact
54:11 Community and Connection in Nonprofit Leadership
🔗 Learn more about Kevin and For Goodness Sakes
Website: for goodness sakes | Communications for Behavioral Change
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsmithatfgsakes/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fgsakes
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (00:00.599)
Very good. Welcome to Hello Chaos, a weekly podcast exploring the messy and chaotic minds and lives of founders, entrepreneurs and innovators. Each week I have the privilege to speak with founders across the spectrum, founders from different industries at various stages, from startups to mature businesses of all shapes and sizes. Our listeners get to hear the real, the raw, the unvarnished viewpoints and stories, getting incredible insights on what it takes to start and scale a business.
to become a better founder, a better CEO, or really just a better business leader in their community. Today we have on our show Kevin Smith. He is the co-founder of For Goodness Sakes out of Columbia, South Carolina. Welcome, welcome to the chaos, Kevin.
Kevin Smith (00:46.296)
Good morning, Jennifer. Thanks for having me.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (00:47.419)
Good morning. Well, just start us out. Tell us what inspired you to get involved of starting your own organization, getting into the entrepreneurial fray. What inspired that?
Kevin Smith (01:01.486)
Well, I was in the entrepreneurial fray beforehand. I was working with a marketing communications firm that is still around called Riggs Partners. And we had a long history of a pro bono program for nonprofits and local causes. And that program started in 1999. And every year,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:05.147)
What were you doing before?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:11.589)
Okay.
Kevin Smith (01:28.844)
we adopt around a half dozen or so nonprofits from the upstate of South Carolina and from the Midlands where I'm located. And that program really exposed us to nonprofits of all walks of life. And it just was the most fulfilling work that we did all year. It's a pro bono marathon. So we adopt these clients.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (01:39.631)
Okay.
Kevin Smith (01:57.015)
We onboard them very quickly and then we have a 24 hour blitz of creative development for these firms.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:05.155)
so it's like, I come from the agency background too and have Bright Marketing as the agency I founded in 2013. But is it like, we call it Lucky Strike Extra is like a huge ideation session just for these nonprofits and then it's like giving them free work, free creative ideas and materials and all that.
Kevin Smith (02:13.272)
Right.
Kevin Smith (02:23.982)
It's beyond just ideas. It is actual materials that could be brand development, identity work, public service announcements, some web works, digital marketing assets, brand strategy, marketing planning. So we were in that space for many, many years. I'm trying to think. it's been
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:37.637)
Fantastic.
Kevin Smith (02:52.514)
This will be our 25th Create-a-thon coming up in October. But that exposed us to so many causes. And as I said earlier, it was just the most fulfilling, exciting work that we did all year. And we did it with a number of obstacles, the obstacle of 24 hours to work on it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (02:54.427)
Wow.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:15.885)
Yeah, I mean, I'm just going 24 hour blitz of producing all of that for many. You said it's not just one nonprofit. You're saying it's a brainstorming of multiple nonprofits.
Kevin Smith (03:25.588)
Yes, the nonprofits apply and we make a selection. So more apply than get selected each year, but we choose around half dozen or so, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, depending on the size of our crew that are folks that are associated with the agency and also some volunteers from other aspects of the community.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (03:43.642)
Right.
Kevin Smith (03:56.034)
Just love that that worked so much, we began to attract a lot of non-profits who wanted to work with us, who did have a budget, who could work beyond our pro bono event. And in doing that, our practice became increasingly focused on the non-profit sector. Not exclusively focused, but that portion of our work just continued to grow. So.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:03.843)
Okay.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:17.285)
Right.
Kevin Smith (04:23.988)
We made a decision that we wanted to be a bit more intentional about it and found a practice area called For Goodness Sakes that would specialize in social impact marketing and causes, nonprofits. Sometimes that's work for government agencies that are helping people make positive changes in their lives. So that's what brought about the focus of For Goodness Sakes and
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (04:42.031)
Right.
Kevin Smith (04:53.302)
It's been very rewarding, very exciting. It's still fairly new. We've been at it about a couple of years now, but we have a much longer history. it was a 20 plus year journey to get to the founding of For Goodness Sakes.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:02.401)
Okay. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:14.203)
So you so you guys are like an agency but just for nonprofits is that that is that is fantastic
Kevin Smith (05:20.898)
That's correct. It's nonprofits, foundations, and government agencies.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (05:25.913)
and government agencies. And so when you said, okay, I'm gonna raise my hand to do this, you know, jumping into that fray, what surprised you the most of being now a founder, branching off into doing this? You know, was there any kind of like myths that you've been told and then you're like, is, people lie.
or like really what just kind of surprised you the most good or bad?
Kevin Smith (06:01.708)
Well, a good surprise is it was very well received. This wasn't a complete shocker, but I am surprised at how much it takes to author content and promote something that is new. I do a bi-weekly article that is sent out to a database of nonprofit leaders.
across the country and just the authorship of that content and we also have a podcast called the Science of Good. So doing those things that are promoting the business while fun are much more work than I ever dreamt because we hadn't had the firm that I have been part of for many years.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (06:48.376)
Yes.
Kevin Smith (06:56.902)
We didn't do a lot of self promotion because we were very well established, been around since 1987 and fortunate enough to have a strong reputation, at least locally or across South Carolina, but we wanted a bigger footprint, we wanted a larger pool, we wanted a narrower specialization. So that required our own content marketing program and
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:01.605)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:11.941)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:17.744)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:25.807)
Right.
Kevin Smith (07:26.422)
leading that up. I'm shocked at how much more work it actually is than I imagined.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (07:32.697)
can totally relate and also like the defining of the brand and your thing. We didn't really have to do that with the, you know, before and now it's like we've got our own product, our own value proposition and I call it's like everything that we work with our clients on. was that was kind of a discovery for me of like, this is I can feel now clients pains a lot more and relate.
to that and just yeah, the content farm is a little bit more brutal. So what did you discover most? It is, my God, yes. It was like herding cats, cattle and also just like, I don't know if you find it that way, but even just to ideate what's the topics that I really.
Kevin Smith (08:11.788)
It's tough being a farmer.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (08:29.051)
that I really want to focus on that are more intentional, that's going to plant the right seeds in the people's minds. there's a lot of, I know people can just go, yeah, content everywhere. was like, but you gotta be really intentional. And sometimes just that brain sweat is a lot more work than I don't think people realize. Did you find that too?
Kevin Smith (08:53.55)
That's right.
Absolutely. One of the things though that has helped is we have a focus within a focus in addition to specializing in calls communications and mostly that's nonprofits. Some foundations and some government work but the majority of it is focused on nonprofits and beyond that specialization we believed that
the communications devoted to causes was often lacking the same amount of strategy, the same amount of polish that commercial work had. And beyond that, I felt like, you know, I saw these worthy causes working really, really hard and oftentimes it being almost a losing battle. Some of the problems that
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:38.139)
100%.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (09:53.019)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Smith (09:55.608)
we're trying to solve, be that gun safety, for example, or trying to find and recruit enough foster parents to meet the needs of children in various regions. But when I looked at those things getting more, the needs growing,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:03.215)
Right.
Kevin Smith (10:24.578)
rather than shrinking despite so many good people trying to work for the opposite outcome and looking at the communications, we just felt that it could be so much better.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:25.872)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (10:38.249)
the opportunity is vast. Yeah. Well, no, can say, well, and I'm sure you see that, too, of a lot of nonprofits. They're hiring for communications. They'll hire people, you know, interns from college or people straight out of school who don't really have the knowledge and background of let's let's define kind of the problem. Let's define the you know, what's our value proposition?
Kevin Smith (10:40.886)
We decided, sorry.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (11:06.361)
You know, how do we talk about it? How do we message it strategically? Let's define our target and be able to properly then communicate that right message to that right audience. And people coming, you know, because we see that a lot too of even in commercial work too of just the inexperience of, and we do a lot of work in B2B and you talk about opportunity of.
People think, it's just B2B. It doesn't need to look good. I'm like, yeah, there's so much opportunity to look better, sound better, but just like you said, be more strategic in that communication. yeah, nonprofits are probably, because they're just, I don't have a budget for this. Let's just, or I'm getting volunteers to do this. So you guys stepping in and it's,
just probably like a huge ocean of opportunity.
Kevin Smith (12:07.662)
Well, it is, but I also think that a lot of the approaches that have been relied upon in the past that are very typical expected work in categories just isn't moving the needle. So I mean, I think about the easiest example I can think of is some distracted driving. It's an issue that we've worked on before.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:25.861)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (12:37.0)
And you just see the problem getting worse and worse with texting. And then you see a lot of the classic messaging that are taking their cues from drunk driving ads from the 1980s or 1990s. And you just see dire warnings and scare tactics that cause the audience to look away. And one of our
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:40.912)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (12:49.339)
Thanks
Kevin Smith (13:04.148)
One of the things that is different about our approach is we try and approach work through the lens of behavioral science and looking at what is going to move people and motivate people. And so many causes are looking really at contributing to, inadvertently of course, contributing to shame, contributing to bad behaviors because they're making the situation look so dire.
that it's contradictory to how our brains work.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (13:37.861)
Right, mean, yeah, our brain will automate that lizard brain, right? It'll just like shut it off. If it's something that we can't relate to or it's too emotional in a way, it bounces, doesn't stick. So what have you found to be the most rewarding part of starting this, co-founding this organization and seeing this approach?
Kevin Smith (13:42.069)
That's right.
Kevin Smith (14:07.45)
I love the clients because they are genuinely altruistic, wonderful people doing really difficult jobs. They are just soldiers. when I think about the caliber of people that I get to work with on the client side, I look at it and go, they could go somewhere tomorrow and make more money. They're doing
They're doing work that they love and believe in, and that makes for just a different atmosphere in the relationship and an alignment of goals and objectives that just make the work more rewarding.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:43.642)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (14:52.731)
I bet, I bet, especially you came from agency commercial side and now you're, know, was that kind of a, I don't know, was that what drew you to this? Was, okay, I don't have to deal with that. It's more rewarding working with people that have more of a purpose-driven mentality. Is that?
Kevin Smith (14:58.733)
Right?
Kevin Smith (15:18.606)
Yes, I think it was just life stages more than anything for me. Early in my career, it was about learning the business, trying to get a raise, get a promotion, earn a living, make my mark. I started out working in South Carolina, moved to New York City where I lived for a
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (15:32.976)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (15:46.059)
seven years and worked with some larger firms. So it was, hey, how can I work on things that are bigger? And how can I build my career?
Later on, that was my mindset in my 30s. Now, sure, in my 50s, I look at it and go, okay, how do I wanna spend the next 15, 20 years of my career? How do I wanna finish things? And it was just about, hey, I love the work, I love the atmosphere. I wasn't cut out for corporate life.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:03.183)
Right, which is most of our, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:13.659)
Right.
Kevin Smith (16:27.394)
But when I looked at it, when I thought about it and said, gosh, my perfect scenario would be doing what I like to do and what I believe I'm fairly good at, doing that for causes that matter and going home at the end of the day and saying, somebody, hopefully, hey, somebody's life is a little bit better today because we were around and we got a message out into the world.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (16:54.211)
Yeah, I love that. What have you found through this journey and starting this? What did you discover about yourself that maybe you didn't even realize was kind of down deep?
Kevin Smith (17:13.922)
I had lot of biases. I had a lot of misperceptions about...
Kevin Smith (17:28.128)
other groups of people that I didn't really understand all that well and didn't have a lot of exposure to. And I love being proven wrong when it's for good.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (17:41.753)
Yeah, yeah. like the constituents or the stakeholders of the nonprofits that you're working in, you're like, never knew about that type of a person, like kind of that scenario of.
Kevin Smith (17:57.358)
There's certainly a lot of issues I didn't know about. You generally know that there are public health issues that need to be addressed and we want there to be fewer people that have diabetes or fewer people that are smoking or vaping or fewer people that are driving while distracted. Those things you know about, but
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:00.645)
Hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:08.613)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:12.901)
Right.
Kevin Smith (18:26.806)
I've gotten into audiences like mental health or addressing homelessness, where you have some stereotypes, some biases that you may think, well, gosh, for example, a lot of people who are homeless have mental illnesses. I don't know what we can do. A lot of them have substance abuse problems.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:35.503)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (18:48.591)
That's right.
Kevin Smith (18:57.034)
I looked at it and went, I made those assumptions too right along with everyone else until you get educated by clients and by research and by your audience. The largest thing I've ever worked on that really led to this specialty was a contraceptive access program. And it was eight methods of birth control, all three are very low cost. And our job was
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:01.38)
Right.
Kevin Smith (19:26.414)
was to promote the service and make this free service available to women in South Carolina, particularly those who are underserved medically, who live in underserved communities, and who have a lot of financial limitations. Early on, I knew the goal of the program, which was to reduce unintended pregnancies by 25%. And the thought being, if
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:39.877)
All
Kevin Smith (19:55.776)
more children are intended or intentional, a lot of social problems are going to go away on their own. And it seemed like, wow, that was a really smart linchpin issue. But I looked at it and said to my client, I just don't know if we can succeed. I don't know if I can get people with a lot of barriers to access. They can't get takeoff work. They don't have reliable transportation. They don't have
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (19:59.876)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:04.153)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:22.309)
Right.
Kevin Smith (20:24.856)
child care. They've been been mistreated or treated poorly by the medical community. They're intimidating practices like here's a clipboard to have to fill out said there's so many barriers there. I just don't know that I can get women without a lot of agency to sign up for a medical appointment in the type of numbers that you want. And
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:31.193)
Right. And there's fear. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (20:49.283)
Right, just kind of like managing expectations there, right? Of just, yeah, is this a lofty goal or is this a realistic goal of you're right, that's.
Kevin Smith (20:53.485)
Right?
Kevin Smith (20:58.542)
It was, I thought, a wonderful goal, but an unrealistic one, most probably. But I was proven wrong. That program has resulted in a 58 % drop in unintended pregnancies in the state and has been accessed by over 560,000 women. So I misspoke that. 560,000 women.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:01.883)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:15.931)
Wow.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:27.941)
Wow, wow.
Kevin Smith (21:28.462)
And so it's one in three women in the state where I live. So kind of proved to me that number one, people, if given the chance and given the right information, people will make smart choices and make choices that are right for them. So that was an area where I really underestimated our audience and those moments are humbling for me.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:47.343)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (21:55.707)
Yeah. Well, and I'm wondering too of, you're sitting there and you're having these conversations though, which are good conversations to be questioning that, to be challenging those things and then makes the team kind of go deeper. Do you think it was maybe those biases or those kind of the questioning of that helped then craft
a more unique message. Like you said, you guys are using behavioral science of you guys kind of broke down maybe the message so that it would be better received. Because you're right, I would have gone through that same thought process of, is this? Is this even achievable? But how do you break that barrier to get that right message in to the right?
Kevin Smith (22:28.206)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (22:54.587)
you know, to that recipient, because, you know, with the right education, people will make it, but it's like, how do you do that?
Kevin Smith (23:05.048)
Well, what really informed that was looking at historical messaging, trying to encourage contraceptive access. a lot of it was telling people what they should do, talking down to them, shaming them. There wasn't anything uplifting and empowering, aspirational.
you know, was, we created a campaign called No Drama. It was about avoiding all of the drama that happens when someone finds out that they're pregnant and they didn't intend to be, or don't want to be. And really just kind of heading that off with messaging about empowerment. And it was really different than what had been produced previously. So,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:02.576)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (24:04.16)
learning from history, learning from some of the campaigns that really tell people what they should do or shouldn't do or what they ought to do, how they should behave, really comes across so often as talking down to an audience. We all know the right things to do. No one thinks that having a steady diet of hamburgers every day for lunch is going to make you a heart healthy individual.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:13.999)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Smith (24:34.594)
But, so people don't need reminding of that. People don't need a reminding that texting and driving is dumb. They need a reason to say no to that. And that reason needs to kind of circumvent, as you said, that lizard brain.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:37.488)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (24:51.545)
Yeah. So what has been the biggest challenge to you? mean, you said that you guys formulated or founded, for goodness sake, a couple of years ago, two, three years ago. What's been the biggest challenge of running the organization?
Kevin Smith (25:03.054)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:11.321)
Have you guys faced a big challenge yet?
Kevin Smith (25:13.806)
Sure, I mean, we're in some ways, we're facing one now with a lot of government cuts to social services organizations and nonprofits. Fortunately, we do a lot of work with private foundations and causes that do have budgets and we'll, and we of course still continue our Create-a-thon work for people who can't afford to hire us. But that is, you know, that has been a challenge, but
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:19.629)
yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:38.233)
Yeah, the Kreat-a-thon. I love that.
Kevin Smith (25:43.744)
I think the biggest challenge for me has been post-COVID workplace expectations and habits. I celebrate all of the flexibility and of hours and work locations. That is, I enjoy the heck out of it. And so do my colleagues. However, there's such a cost and you're not together as much. It's harder to...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (25:54.853)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:05.231)
Great.
Kevin Smith (26:13.378)
to pull together a meeting, it's harder to have virtual conversations and ideate and whiteboard. I'm not saying you can't do it. It's not the same and it's harder to have that common culture.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:23.885)
It's just, it's not the same. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (26:32.666)
Yep, yep. We've heard that a lot. We felt that in the agency and definitely. I call it people management became kind of a post COVID thing and Chandler's heard us talk about, but also people change too. think like behaviors changed. We've heard that even from some of our commercial clients of they had to introduce training.
to their people that dealt with customers and stuff, patients. Because people became, the fuse was much shorter. How do you overcome abusive language or just short temper, people are just not, even in the agency side, people weren't as kind. Whether it's clients or even teammates just weren't being kind to each other.
And we've heard that a lot in different industries and verticals and we felt that. I don't know if you felt that other than the whole hybrid or remote working, but we were also got into like the behavior of managing people differently than we really had to relearn a lot of things.
Kevin Smith (27:57.614)
Well, it's very difficult to mentor young talent when you're not physically present together. And we work a hybrid schedule, which I enjoy. every bad outcome has some good outcomes. sometimes there's the unintended consequences of things. On a positive note, a world that is completely
communicating by Zoom and doesn't require as much in-person time. It's really opened things up for us geographically. I have a client in Washington DC and a client in Los Angeles and we have great relationship and have done some nice work together and I've never been face-to-face with them in person. And so the technology has allowed that and that is a blessing and part of what we're trying to do with the company, which is look at
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:29.881)
Yeah, we are.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:40.633)
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Smith (28:53.294)
how we can help organizations that are in other parts of the country.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (28:59.309)
Are there other tips or insights that you guys have learned to deal with more of a hybrid and a remote building a culture and a better team atmosphere of what you were used to kind of in the pre-COVID? Are there things that you guys have had to incorporate into your?
Kevin Smith (29:22.478)
You know, the biggest thing we've tried to do, which is difficult, is we have two days where people can choose to work remotely. You don't have to, but if you want to work from home or somewhere else, you work from there. example, I'm a painter, I have an art studio. One day a week, I go to the art studio and do my writing.
content authorship for the company. And that's just great to kind of be in a different environment and get away and be uninterrupted and quiet. But trying to make sure that when we're together, everybody's together on the same days. And when we're apart, everybody's apart on the same days. That kind of helps rather than Sally comes in Tuesdays and Thursdays and Frank comes in Fridays and Mondays, know, just trying to.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:16.432)
Right.
Kevin Smith (30:19.8)
trying to standardize that, but we still have a lot of coming and going and people have childcare issues or home repairs, whatever, and you have to accommodate that. And it's kind of difficult to imagine how unaccommodating schedules used to be. I it was a tough thing. And now it's a little bit more, I think it's much more permissive in ways that I think are very good, but there's just a cultural cost.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:26.809)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:38.553)
Yeah, yeah,
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:46.659)
Yeah, people have life and people need to manage life.
Kevin Smith (30:50.498)
That's right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (30:53.499)
So you said that you're a painter. you, on the agency side, did you grow up in the, like I grew up in the media and analytics and kind of the account planning space. Were you more of an account service or were you in the creative side?
Kevin Smith (31:06.83)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Smith (31:11.982)
I started out in account service and moved into account planning.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:15.959)
Okay, okay. But then you do painting on the side. Like as a little, yeah, I'm a painter on the side. Nobody sees my stuff though. that's the release. Yeah, mine's a, also a fan fiction writer in a couple of fandoms that I have some anonymous Tumblr blogs and an AO3 account that,
Kevin Smith (31:19.978)
Yeah, that's my
Kevin Smith (31:25.068)
That's my mental health program.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (31:42.969)
Nobody will find me because it's not under anything that I ran off of. But that's yeah, you got to have a release. So yours is painting and then writing the content development for the organization. But yeah, you got to have be in the right head space for that. Definitely. Is there anything, what would be our listeners would be really surprised to learn about you that's not on your resume, it's not on LinkedIn.
Kevin Smith (31:47.519)
Thank
Kevin Smith (31:57.613)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:12.827)
What's something that we'd be really surprised to learn about you?
Kevin Smith (32:17.261)
Hmm.
Kevin Smith (32:24.288)
Gosh, I'm having a hard time with that.
Kevin Smith (32:31.086)
I feel like a fairly open book. don't know that much about me would surprise anybody, to be honest.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:33.595)
I
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (32:38.395)
Okay, well here's another one. What do you love most about yourself that you wish other people would recognize more?
Kevin Smith (32:50.018)
Well, and it certainly hasn't come across in our conversation, but I really enjoy humor and laughing and, you know, just joking around. I think that that's, and that probably doesn't always come through in a professional setting. But in my personal life, I like to cut up and laugh and have fun. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:05.967)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:11.929)
You're a jokester. Okay, so if you had to hit rewind on anything, like if you had to do a, not that things that you regret, but just things like, had I known this two, three years ago, I would have done something differently. Is there anything that you can think of that you would, know, man, I wish I would have known that.
Kevin Smith (33:37.078)
What comes to mind first is I wish we would have put the for goodness sakes flag in the ground earlier, which is always the mark of a good decision. Gosh, why didn't I do this five years ago? So there's certainly that.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (33:47.417)
Right. Why don't I do this? Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Smith (33:58.486)
As far as regrets, think that this work has caused communications and work in this space has made me more positive overall. And I think as a younger person earlier in my career, I felt like things were a bit more of a fight. I'm not saying I was a contentious person, but it was a bit more of a
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:22.392)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (34:27.758)
of a focus on what are the struggles or why can't it be another way? Why can't we have a bigger budget? Why can't this client be more flexible? Some of those things that I just felt were always not breaking my way or not coming, not unfolding the way I would want or the way things would unfold where I am in charge. And I think I've...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (34:37.466)
Right.
Kevin Smith (34:56.874)
I've probably lost a good percentage of that and that, that I think is really, is really healthy. So that's something I would, I would change when I look at the rear view.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (35:04.911)
Yeah.
And what was that like, you said, okay, if we could have done this five years earlier, what was that like, aha moment where you're like, everyone's like this, we just need to break off and make this a whole other organization. Was it just the volume that was coming and it was like the right time? Or was there a fear? Like was it sitting in the back of like your, like we should do this.
I'm not ready for that. mean, was it a fear based of that held back that decision or was it just a moment of, my gosh, why are we not doing this?
Kevin Smith (35:46.968)
think that increasingly we knew that specialization was going to be very, very important for the long-term viability of our company. And I was having a conversation with a consultant who said, you know, what do you want more of? And the program that I mentioned earlier, the Contraceptive Access Program,
had been such a wild success and far and away the most impactful, biggest work we had ever done outcome wise. and so I looked at it and went, God, that's the work I'm most proud of in my whole career. That's the type of work I want to do all the time. I want to do it at a scale that is impacting a lot of people, not just to, not to grow our company.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (36:23.749)
Big outcomes, yeah.
Kevin Smith (36:45.838)
or not to necessarily grow the number of staff or our buildings, but just to have more impact. And we were coming up on what was a five-year anniversary of that work or that program, which started in 28, we launched in 2018, the program started in 2017. And I said, you know, this is it, this is far and away.
what everyone loved the most, not just me. And we said, well, if we're gonna get more of that, then let's leverage that experience as well as a 20 plus year of work, pro bono program of working with nonprofits on as many issues as I think you can think of almost. Let's leverage that and let's narrow our focus and
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:17.605)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:38.672)
Hmm.
Kevin Smith (37:45.407)
and really push hard. And so that's how it evolved. It wasn't a reaction to any demand. It was more of a reaction to a success and going, that's what we want more of.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (37:58.265)
That is, that's what we want more, the outcomes. And it's funny, mean, you know, we talk about that with clients and especially on the branding side of like, what's the impact you wanna have in the world? And I think a lot of people think, that's just in nonprofit space. It's like, no, every brand, every organization, every company should have some kind of outcome base.
vision, the fact that you get to do it like real, like you you're changing lives.
Kevin Smith (38:36.27)
I hope so.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (38:37.177)
Yeah. All right. So if we met a year from now, I come visit you and we go and celebrate something. What would we be celebrating one year from now?
Kevin Smith (38:58.594)
Well, I would hope it would be another big success, or at least the beginning, even better than a big success. What's better than that is something to come. So I would love for it to be, we had this exciting new assignment, I can't wait to get started, boy is it going to be a challenge, don't know how we're going to figure it out, but we will, and.
it has us really energized.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (39:31.055)
figuring out the puzzles, the puzzle piece. okay. I love that. What's the best piece of advice that you've been given from, know, counselor, advisor, you know, business leader that you've really taken to heart and it's shaped how you run the business?
Kevin Smith (39:32.568)
That's right.
Kevin Smith (39:56.024)
think that it's been to not shy away from difficult, difficult conundrums, difficult problems to solve. And also that there are million reasons that something won't work. And you have to just do it anyway and make it work. And I think that
some of my business partners have had that spirit of just because there are five good reasons why this can't happen. It's kind like what I said about the contraceptive counseling. I can give you a long list of reasons why people have barriers and may not make an appointment, but you have to believe in the good and overcome that.
and don't be part of what one of my partners calls the can't don't want club.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (40:57.205)
the camp won't don't, is that like a philosophy of how he kind of runs business, like how he, I call it the executive field guide of like his personality style or is that more of a mantra of like, as we look through these problems or these campaigns, let's not fall into this. Because I love that.
Kevin Smith (41:16.3)
Yeah, we can't fall into the can't don't want mindset of we don't have enough money to make an impact or this particular issue cannot be solved. There's a solution to everything. And when our problems are in many cases, unfortunately, getting worse, we need new approaches and we need the conviction that they can be addressed.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:37.775)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (41:46.382)
And you look at something like income disparity or homelessness in an era where affordable housing is more and more unattainable. When I think about foster care, worked on a campaign that was specifically trying to address the placement of teenage foster children and how that was, you know, not as easy of a sell.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (41:48.901)
Right.
Poverty. Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:14.799)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (42:14.83)
as younger children. So I think you just have to say we're going to will it to work.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (42:23.151)
Right, we're not gonna shy away from that problem in that conversation. We're gonna jump into it. I love that, that's so great. So what do you do on your spare, I mean other than painting, what else do you do in your spare time? What do you do to like, you know, if you have to relieve stress, do you have any routines or disciplines that you've kind of put in and okay, this is how I need to make sure I stay positive, you know, re-energize.
Kevin Smith (42:48.396)
Well, have a, as far as routines go, have a, I have a Boykin spaniel that, that requires, as I say, two miles a day or hell to pay. So that is time to clear my head. Listen to podcasts, fuel that content engine. I also do a, I also do a lot of yard work. Pulling weeds can get rid of a lot of frustration.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:16.919)
yes, yes they can. So how are you dealing, like you said your biggest challenge is kind of you're kind of in it with the government cuts and nonprofits kind of all kind of in a, I don't, I wanna say tizzy, it's, a lot of them don't even know like how it's gonna impact them yet. They're just like, so I think there's a lot of fear out there. What do you guys, you know,
Kevin Smith (43:41.069)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (43:46.427)
plan to do not just for your, but how are you stepping into that, this arena of the uncertainty? How are you guys approaching all that?
Kevin Smith (43:58.882)
Yeah, there's, well, the uncertainty, I certainly feel that. And what's difficult is seeing people who have spent a whole career working to try and have a positive impact, often on the same issue. And having what is a belief system in good and how we solve problems.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (44:00.475)
Sorry, that was a big question. I'm curious myself. like.
Kevin Smith (44:28.782)
being questioned. a uniquely personal affront. you know, it's not, arguably, it's in some ways the same as what happens to for-profit companies when there's a market contraction or recession. You know, change is coming. You have to make adjustments. It's unpleasant. It's stressful. It's uncertain. But
try and think to myself, it's all uncertain all the time anyway, and it was before and it will be again tomorrow. But, know, a time when there's a lot of uncertainty is a time when planning is very important, reassessing what you do.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:04.859)
Yep, yep, oh that's a good, yeah.
Kevin Smith (45:21.844)
how you go about it from an operational point of view, reassessing your communications framework is really essential when you're looking at, we have to make a lot of tough decisions in the months ahead. I read something yesterday that more than 40 % of nonprofits don't have a strategic plan in place.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (45:41.535)
no, no, I agree. I wouldn't even say most businesses don't have a strategic. They might have a business plan. Like we need to get this or we've got a, or maybe even a budget, but there is no action plan, strategic plan to go from I'm trying to get to this either budget or this revenue or this whatever end goal. We see that. It's very surprising.
Kevin Smith (45:49.335)
and
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:10.971)
But then not when you start getting in there to go, yeah.
Kevin Smith (46:15.566)
I mean, now is, if you don't have that in place, now is the time to really step back and invest the time to assess a roadmap forward. the other thing that I believe in is have a three-year strategic plan, but reexamine it every year. So, hey, we had a plan. How does that plan need to change?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:22.139)
to have it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:38.296)
yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:43.013)
Right. Did we hit our goals? Did we?
Kevin Smith (46:45.112)
Did we hit our goals? Initiative number two, step B did not work at all. What do we need to do now? This area of expansion, there's not the demand that we thought. Or our core capacity is suffering because of this new initiative. So I think that there's...
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (46:53.136)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:03.461)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:11.803)
Right.
Kevin Smith (47:13.364)
Now is a time that will force some self-examination. And I regret it, and I don't like the scenario that we're in, and I have nothing but compassion for all of us who are in it. But here we are.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:28.859)
Yeah.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (47:37.829)
That's right. You've got a gift that you can help to go, let's take a step back and breathe and work through and create the roadmap so that you'll be better when you come out of it.
Kevin Smith (47:50.018)
Yeah.
Yes, I mean, that I, the last article that I wrote said, you know, I think back on my career, which is involved the dot com bubble, involved the recession, 9-11 and the recession. And then the great recession and COVID. And now where we are with some of the
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (48:04.708)
I was there.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (48:09.741)
And wait, yeah, yeah.
Kevin Smith (48:21.346)
the government cuts to social services and nonprofits. But every single time, every one of those crises was scary and difficult. But every time on the other side I went, that stunk, but we're better for it.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (48:36.251)
And it's interesting, and then as you said, of looking in the rear view, the brands, the organizations that actually came out of some of those crisis better, more sustainable and stronger, were those that had a strategic plan in place and had some kind of a marketing strategy and operations engine and were working it
Kevin Smith (48:55.459)
Mm.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:06.007)
it might have been scaled back, but at least there was some kind of intentionality and strategy in place that pushed them through it. And so yeah, don't underestimate that, just the power of a plan.
Kevin Smith (49:22.966)
Right. Even if it's one that you is even it's just we have thank God we have a plan because now we have to change it. That is so much of a head start over. I don't it's a blank canvas and now what?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:30.298)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:35.131)
I don't even have a roadmap, yeah, right. Where should I spend my money? Where should I spend my resources? The energy, without the plan, you have nothing to reflect on.
Kevin Smith (49:47.629)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (49:49.883)
we speak from the same from the same playbook. So, OK. If you had to look back into your journey, what word describes your founder journey?
Kevin Smith (50:06.606)
It's that positive outlook and I'm not saying I don't have angry moments or bad days, but I absolutely believe that when your intentions are good and when your intentions are good, it will work out. so that's been my sort of rudder.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:15.344)
Right.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:27.705)
Yeah, I'll say.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:32.325)
So the optimist, the eternal, I've had to come to realize to define myself as I am a, because I used to be in account planning, you you have a lot of cynicism because you're putting so much discernment on everything, right? And so yeah, I've kind of, I'm an optimistic, cynic humanist.
Kevin Smith (50:35.266)
Yes.
Kevin Smith (50:50.104)
Right?
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (50:57.509)
where I also know and understand the pragmatism that comes along with just being a human, people's behaviors, but that's how I've had to come to define myself. I'm an optimistic, cynic humanist. All right, so if you had to look ahead to the next chapter, your journey has been of an optimist. Now what's the chapter ahead? How do you define that? What word?
Kevin Smith (51:27.662)
Scale.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:30.725)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (51:31.182)
That's what I'm hoping to achieve.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (51:34.171)
That's right, scale for impact. I love it. All right. Well, where, I love our conversations. I know we're running over, but where can people get ahold of you and learn more about for goodness sake and what you guys do and reach out to you for a plan?
Kevin Smith (51:53.632)
Sure. Our website is FGSakes.com and on it you can go to there's an insight section. You can sign up for my bi-weekly newsletter. You can also see the Science of Good podcast where we, my colleague and I interview nonprofit leaders from all across the country, myriad issues, really an impressive bunch of folks.
that I think are so helpful because running a nonprofit, being an executive director or CEO can be incredibly lonely. Your spouse probably doesn't want to hear about work. You don't necessarily have, you can't share things with your coworkers because you're the leader. A trend in nonprofits right now is having co-CEOs.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (52:45.904)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (52:51.566)
with some of the larger nonprofits for that very reason. But our mission with the Science of Good is to let nonprofit leaders learn from one another because the biggest thing that I've taken away is be it large or small, if it's public health or scientific research, whatever the issue, whatever the size, the nonprofit leaders
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (53:01.957)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith (53:20.318)
all have the same core, core, purpose sense of purpose, and they all have the same struggles. So anyway, that podcast is, is also on, Apple podcasts as well.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (53:28.347)
They need a community for themselves.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (53:36.687)
Very good. I'm gonna check it out too. And we'll tag it and promote it when we launch this episode. So thank you for hanging out with us, Kevin. I loved hearing your story and what you guys are doing and hopefully we can help lift you guys up. That would be great. And for everyone listening or watching, thank you for joining us. This podcast is available on your favorite podcast platform. So please help subscribe to Hello Chaos.
Kevin Smith (53:53.89)
Well, thanks so much. I've enjoyed being on.
Jennifer "JJ" Sutton (54:05.423)
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